Subies, the engines again...

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Happy to report tha my 12 year old Duratec 2.3 engine in my Ford Focus, has never needed to add a drop of oil in the 7 years I've owned her. I check the dipstick about once a month.

My OCI's are between 8 to 9K on synthetic.


I had to add oil once to my 2.0L duratec. I was surprised when 6 quarts came out during an oil change.

Apparently the dipstick reads dry on the first pull ...




Originally Posted By: AZjeff
People who think a quart in 2K usage is OK for a low mileage car most likely don't own one. Unacceptable.


Chrysler said 650 miles per quart of oil in our PoS 2008 Wrangler was normal.


Originally Posted By: Nate1979


To be fair they did a complete engine redesign and went to xw20 at the same time. People have tried heavier weights and they still consume (when tried after the fact).


Subaru's manufacturing tolerances just aren't up to having low tension piston rings. The rings won't seat properly. If they don't seat, it doesn't matter if you run 0w-20 or 20w-50 ... it's going to consume. Obviously heavy oil is going to consume at some smaller, different rate ... but it'll still consume.

When our PoS 3.8L minivan-engined wrangler was burning 1 quart every 650 miles, it didn't matter what was in the sump ... it was going to burn a quart every 650 miles


Let me guess the dealer said it was within spec?

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Hard to believe anyone would argue that it's acceptable for a modern, normally aspirated passenger car engine to use any noticeable amount of oil in 5,000 miles. A tuned and thrashed WRX maybe, but a bone stock Forester? No way.



You've obviously never owned anything German.

 

[dblshock]

What becomes of these heavy oil burners as they age? maybe no one answers because they croke off early. Anyone had experience with an oil burner brand new off the lot like these Subie's.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: Rust_Belt_Pete
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Originally Posted By: Oregoonian
Happy to report tha my 12 year old Duratec 2.3 engine in my Ford Focus, has never needed to add a drop of oil in the 7 years I've owned her. I check the dipstick about once a month.

My OCI's are between 8 to 9K on synthetic.


I had to add oil once to my 2.0L duratec. I was surprised when 6 quarts came out during an oil change.

Apparently the dipstick reads dry on the first pull ...




Originally Posted By: AZjeff
People who think a quart in 2K usage is OK for a low mileage car most likely don't own one. Unacceptable.


Chrysler said 650 miles per quart of oil in our PoS 2008 Wrangler was normal.


Originally Posted By: Nate1979


To be fair they did a complete engine redesign and went to xw20 at the same time. People have tried heavier weights and they still consume (when tried after the fact).


Subaru's manufacturing tolerances just aren't up to having low tension piston rings. The rings won't seat properly. If they don't seat, it doesn't matter if you run 0w-20 or 20w-50 ... it's going to consume. Obviously heavy oil is going to consume at some smaller, different rate ... but it'll still consume.

When our PoS 3.8L minivan-engined wrangler was burning 1 quart every 650 miles, it didn't matter what was in the sump ... it was going to burn a quart every 650 miles


Let me guess the dealer said it was within spec?


Dealer agreed it was way too much as well. They tried but Chrysler wouldn't do anything

 

[Andrew1972]

Originally Posted By: dblshock
What becomes of these heavy oil burners as they age? maybe no one answers because they croke off early. Anyone had experience with an oil burner brand new off the lot like these Subie's.


If they burn enough oil Subaru addresses them within the 60k powertrain. My guess this extends to 100k with past history of quietly addressing owners who actually maintain there vehicles and have a reasonable attitude to dealer. Not sure with massive current sales they are as liberal with warranty items but in the past I have known them to cover up to 100k powertrain items that were out of warranty.

I asked my uncle about his recent 4000 mile trip to midwest and back with 2014 Outback 4cyl.

Two things:
1) dip stick on top of motor that dealer left before trip
2) did not burn or lose oil out of fill hole.....

I checked my parents 2015 Outback 4 cyl based model at 5500 miles(thread sparked interest) which dad never checked. Still near full mark....

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Hard to believe anyone would argue that it's acceptable for a modern, normally aspirated passenger car engine to use any noticeable amount of oil in 5,000 miles. A tuned and thrashed WRX maybe, but a bone stock Forester? No way.



You've obviously never owned anything German.


I have and I do. All the cars I have had in the last 20 years have been 4-strokes.

 

[Rust_Belt_Pete]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Hard to believe anyone would argue that it's acceptable for a modern, normally aspirated passenger car engine to use any noticeable amount of oil in 5,000 miles. A tuned and thrashed WRX maybe, but a bone stock Forester? No way.



You've obviously never owned anything German.


I have and I do. All the cars I have had in the last 20 years have been 4-strokes.




Buuuuurrrrnnnnn!

 

[emg]

Originally Posted By: Miller88
Subaru's manufacturing tolerances just aren't up to having low tension piston rings. The rings won't seat properly. If they don't seat, it doesn't matter if you run 0w-20 or 20w-50 ... it's going to consume.


So why do they only seem to burn oil in the North American market?

The only major engine difference I'm aware of is that they use thicker oil elsewhere.

 

[SwampSurvivor]

Originally Posted By: emg
Originally Posted By: Miller88
Subaru's manufacturing tolerances just aren't up to having low tension piston rings. The rings won't seat properly. If they don't seat, it doesn't matter if you run 0w-20 or 20w-50 ... it's going to consume.


So why do they only seem to burn oil in the North American market?

The only major engine difference I'm aware of is that they use thicker oil elsewhere.


Overseas they got a diesel engine. And it wasn't *all* engines that burnt oil, just ones that weren't assembled correctly.

And it didn't matter what we put in it, it drank a quart every 650 miles.

 

[pottymouth]

Honestly, the big issue I have is Subaru claiming that oil usage of 1 quart in 1,300 miles is the cutoff between acceptable and a problem. How in the world is that level of oil consumption acceptable on a mass-marketed car? I have a motorcycle that spins over 11K rpm, puts 140HP out from 900cc's and shares motor oil between the engine and gearbox. I change the oil every 2K miles and I have never seen it use a measurable amount of oil. Why then would it be OK for a comparatively lazy car engine to use so much? If Subaru claimed that it was normal for the car to eat wheel bearings every 10K miles, would that be OK because they wrote it in the manual?

Drivers who run the sump dry and destroy the engine do bear some responsibility, but that would never occur if the problem of excessive consumption did not exist in the first place. That is the real problem. Someone's ignorance/negligence after the fact does not excuse Subaru. They have a problem that they are either unable or unwilling to fix. Just claiming that it's normal is not a fix. Haphazard, inconsistent or ineffective remedies to individual customers is not a fix.

Doesn't mean anyone can't love Subarus or that every car is a problem. I just don't get how anyone, diehard fan of Subaru or not, could agree that what the company says is normal could possibly be acceptable.

 

[Nate1979]

Originally Posted By: pottymouth

Honestly, the big issue I have is Subaru claiming that oil usage of 1 quart in 1,300 miles is the cutoff between acceptable and a problem. How in the world is that level of oil consumption acceptable on a mass-marketed car? I have a motorcycle that spins over 11K rpm, puts 140HP out from 900cc's and shares motor oil between the engine and gearbox. I change the oil every 2K miles and I have never seen it use a measurable amount of oil. Why then would it be OK for a comparatively lazy car engine to use so much? If Subaru claimed that it was normal for the car to eat wheel bearings every 10K miles, would that be OK because they wrote it in the manual?

Drivers who run the sump dry and destroy the engine do bear some responsibility, but that would never occur if the problem of excessive consumption did not exist in the first place. That is the real problem. Someone's ignorance/negligence after the fact does not excuse Subaru. They have a problem that they are either unable or unwilling to fix. Just claiming that it's normal is not a fix. Haphazard, inconsistent or ineffective remedies to individual customers is not a fix.

Doesn't mean anyone can't love Subarus or that every car is a problem. I just don't get how anyone, diehard fan of Subaru or not, could agree that what the company says is normal could possibly be acceptable.



Why is this Subaru's problem? All manufacturer's have a cutoff where they will or will not pay for warranty work based on a certain amount of consumption. And they are all about 1 quart / 1000 miles. If you don't like it you can always pay them to fix it. Suppose people thought that 1/8th of a quart was excessive oil consumption and tried to get them to fix it? The point is they have to have a cutoff or you would have idiots trying to get a new engine for small consumption.

So it is a numbers game. The warranty has a cost on their books and they have to control that cost to a certain extent.

 

[fdcg27]

Originally Posted By: Rust_Belt_Pete
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Originally Posted By: pottymouth
Hard to believe anyone would argue that it's acceptable for a modern, normally aspirated passenger car engine to use any noticeable amount of oil in 5,000 miles. A tuned and thrashed WRX maybe, but a bone stock Forester? No way.



You've obviously never owned anything German.


I have and I do. All the cars I have had in the last 20 years have been 4-strokes.




Buuuuurrrrnnnnn!



Nah, more like BUUUULLL, but then you've probably never owned anything German either.

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Why is this Subaru's problem? All manufacturer's have a cutoff where they will or will not pay for warranty work based on a certain amount of consumption. And they are all about 1 quart / 1000 miles. If you don't like it you can always pay them to fix it. Suppose people thought that 1/8th of a quart was excessive oil consumption and tried to get them to fix it? The point is they have to have a cutoff or you would have idiots trying to get a new engine for small consumption.

So it is a numbers game. The warranty has a cost on their books and they have to control that cost to a certain extent.


It's up to Subaru and/or the courts as to whether it's their problem or not. If Subaru wants to continue to grow in the US, it would be in their best interests to actually fix the problem. Problem cars have had the rings replaced and even new shortblocks and end up using excessive amounts of oil. It's not a problem that has been solved. How many Subaru buyers (outside of the few real diehard Subaru fans) are likely to buy another after experiences like these? How many will trash the brand to friends and family? Pointing to page 138 in the manual while flipping the customer off is probably not going to satisfy most Subaru owners who experience this problem.

1/8 of a quart in 1200 miles? Does the dipstick even have the resolution to show that? In 6K miles, the car would be down a little more than half a quart, not an engine-blowing situation.

So now I'll turn that around for you. I'm assuming your Subaru doesn't go through oil like Rob Reiner through cheeseburgers. If you drove it off the lot and it ate a quart of oil at 1,200 miles and continued the same consumption would you have been happy with that? Would you have expected Subaru to fix it or would you have just paid for it yourself?

It sure is a numbers game. Subaru has a small number of customers. It's a lot harder to get a new one than keep an existing one. I won't buy one, and I actually liked the '98 Forester I had. Between head gaskets, oil separator plate leaks, frozen shifter cables, worn windshield wiper bushing, squeaks and rattles..,I view Subarus as an excellent AWD system packaged in an otherwise mediocre car. This oil consumption problem only reinforces that view.

Do you really think this level of oil consumption is acceptable? If it was Kia or Chrysler would you feel the same?

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Nah, more like BUUUULLL, but then you've probably never owned anything German either.


I'm pretty sure you have something German, but I wasn't aware that Stihl was making cars now. That sounds pretty awesome!

I'll keep the Jetta for now. The wife seems to like it.

 

[lubricatosaurus]

pottymouth wins this debate. Its a numbers game. I'd personally put the number at 1,800 miles per quart. Anything less and they better start giving away free oil to those customers for life.

 

[Nate1979]

1 quart per 1000 miles is pretty much industry standard. GM did this for the oil burning 5.3L's.

 

[Nate1979]

The warranty is a contract and its not up to the consumer. If the contract says 1 quart per 1000 miles is what they are obligated to fix then tough luck. The same is if you have a problem 1 mile out of warranty should they fix it? They have no obligation.

 

[CKN]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
1 quart per 1000 miles is pretty much industry standard. GM did this for the oil burning 5.3L's.



This is true^^^^^^^^^^^^^^! And GM sells over 40,000 units a month Silverado/Sierra combined.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
The warranty is a contract and its not up to the consumer. If the contract says 1 quart per 1000 miles is what they are obligated to fix then tough luck. The same is if you have a problem 1 mile out of warranty should they fix it? They have no obligation.
State lemon laws supersede those "contracts".

 

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
1 quart per 1000 miles is pretty much industry standard. GM did this for the oil burning 5.3L's.


So if YOUR new car used this much oil this fast you would be ok with that? You would consider it a high quality, well engineered vehicle?