Maybe the filter makers will start putting coupons in the Sunday paper?
ST3600 cut open
- Thread starter Brian Miller_dup1
- Start date
- Status
A little history lesson for our younger folks that only know modern stuff. Most all American cars had a canister type oil filter prior to the mid 60s, if they had oil filters at all. For a period of time oil filters were even optional. How things have changed huh? Anyways, the spin on filters became a common, across the board thing from about mid 60 on. I seriously don't see them going away anytime soon. The few engines that do use the "new" cartidge filters are pretty limited and it'll probably stay that way. On a sidenote, people said the same thing about pushrod engines...they'll all be replaced by OHC engines. Not. They're still going strong in 05/06 and making awesome power and getting great fuel economy, i.e the new LS2, LS7 and the "big" Hemi that's slated to be released are primo examples of giving the big middle finger to OHC doomsayers. The prior LS1 and LS6 did a pretty good job of shutting those people up as well. Ok, enough sidetracking.
[ March 05, 2005, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: 99 ]
[ March 05, 2005, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: 99 ]
You're loosing credibility quite quickly my friend. Just above you stated that the media ripped, not that the media and glue separated from the baseplate. Which is it?
The clicker bypass is not the old design, that is an interim design. The old design are the ones with a coil spring incorporated into the valve on either end of the filter. It looks like Champion Labs was already was searching for a way to lower manufacturing cost. And as you discovered, their first solution was less than satisfactory. For the record, I won't use clicker bypass valved filters either. You discovered the hard way something people were concerned about the first time they saw that clicker bypass valve. Looks like our concern was justified.
Further, metal endcaps aren't necessarily the issue, poor design, materials, manufacturing processes, or quality control is. Look at that MANN filter above. I'd have no trouble using that filter as long as it's well constructed and the materials chosen are rugged enough for the environment it's going to operate in.
By the way, Filter Guy, you think Champion Labs are going to pay slalom44 to have his engine repaired, since slalom44 claims the clicker valve filters apparently caused it to burn oil?
[ March 06, 2005, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: 427Z06 ]
As you asked about if Champion will or won't pay slalom44...I have no impact on that. I don't work there any more.
However, if your reading comprehension would improve slightly..
"BTW: Champion Labs stands behind their products. I sent them the filters, and they compensated me for the damages. I'm an Engineer, and their old design just didn't make sense. The Ecore design does."
So it does in fact look to me as though Champion stands behind their product. And at least one other engineer likes their new design.
As you're on a one man mission for all things bad about the E-core design, should you ever find yourself in South Eastern Illinois i'll set up a plant tour and engineering tour and you can discuss how media hasn't improved since the 60's, clicker valves, "felt" endcaps, poor design, quality control, and whatever else put's fuel in the tank. They'd be happy to answer. Send me a pm and I'll set it up.
Purolator makes some of their filters with cardboard endcaps.quote:
Originally posted by 99:
EXACTLY what I was thinking! There's some "2facism" on this board and you're seeing it right now. Where are all the Fram bashers now? People jump all over Fram for their cardboard end caps. How come nobody's jumping all over the felt end caps and the plastic tube on the STs? The Frams are built like tanks compared to these seemingly POS ST filters. I've never used a ST or Fram filter in my life, so they can both go bankrupt for all I care.quote:
Originally posted by jsharp:
I'm not impressed with the felt endcaps or the assembly quality. Somehow, I think if this were a Fram design people would be trashing it.
I'll stick to Motorcraft, Purolator and Wix myself...
Purolator and Motorcraft for life.
i have always used and believed in motorcraft and purolator. my dad has had bad results from these filters, and on another forum i have gotten into trouble for speaking the truth. the people who berated me for telling it like it was referred me to this site, i cant wait till read this. these people are probably the ones who keep this company in business (and whose cars last no more than 10 years). i was always a believer that for most things in life "you get what you paid for" and this just brings it to light. thanks for confirming my suspecion.
I've seen photos of the cardboard endcaps, but I've yet to see one IRL. I only use two models of filters though. The FL1A/L30001 full size Ford type filter and the FL839/L24457 part that fits the Nissan 3.0L V6. Neither use cardboard...quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Pyrek:
Purolator makes some of their filters with cardboard endcaps.quote:
Originally posted by 99:
EXACTLY what I was thinking! There's some "2facism" on this board and you're seeing it right now. Where are all the Fram bashers now? People jump all over Fram for their cardboard end caps. How come nobody's jumping all over the felt end caps and the plastic tube on the STs? The Frams are built like tanks compared to these seemingly POS ST filters. I've never used a ST or Fram filter in my life, so they can both go bankrupt for all I care.quote:
Originally posted by jsharp:
I'm not impressed with the felt endcaps or the assembly quality. Somehow, I think if this were a Fram design people would be trashing it.
I'll stick to Motorcraft, Purolator and Wix myself...
Purolator and Motorcraft for life.
Well I am disappointed in these pictures as I in haste substituted my usual AC-Delco PF52 for a ST3980.
Another interesting fact about the ST filter is that it's 1" smaller length wise than the AC-delco AND the rubber ring that seals is significantly thinner than the delco.
I am going to spin this apparent cheaper quality filter, and put my standard delco on.
Another observation is that the holes in top are smaller too...
While I am not an expert like some folks are on this forum, it looks like to me that the smaller physical size and the inside construction lend me to believe it's inferior.
I have used Fram XG (with the metal screen on the pleats) for along time with 3K OCI's and switched back to AC delco...alot based on this forum...
I am just thankful that someone keeps challenging the norm and cuts' these open for the rest of us to see.
Thanks
Another interesting fact about the ST filter is that it's 1" smaller length wise than the AC-delco AND the rubber ring that seals is significantly thinner than the delco.
I am going to spin this apparent cheaper quality filter, and put my standard delco on.
Another observation is that the holes in top are smaller too...
While I am not an expert like some folks are on this forum, it looks like to me that the smaller physical size and the inside construction lend me to believe it's inferior.
I have used Fram XG (with the metal screen on the pleats) for along time with 3K OCI's and switched back to AC delco...alot based on this forum...
I am just thankful that someone keeps challenging the norm and cuts' these open for the rest of us to see.
Thanks
Well, this is my 2 cents worth LOL, just changed my oil over the weekend, had a ST 3980 ECORE, with 15W 50 mobil 1, ran it for 12k, the oil stayed cleaner alot longer then normal, but the big thang was the flow of oil to the top of the engine, when i took the oil cap off , i could tell that it was getting 3 times the amount of oil to the rockers and valve springs ( and yes this is with the engine running )and when i cut open the ST oil filter it was full of crud and sludge, but still was flowing great, and the filter was in great shape ( even the end caps was perfect ) so IMO this is the best filter i have used, best of both worlds, flow and filtering!!! by the way truck is 88 chevy full size 4/4 work truck ( it goes threw **** )with 270k on it, i am now running the ST 3980 ECORE with the new mobil 1 15k, later all
I'll email them and see what they have to say.
You might ask them if they "sell" filters with cardboard endcaps. They may not "make" them but that doesn't mean they don't have them in their product line.
Just a couple of points:
Has anyone determined if the "felt" endcaps are permeable or impermeable? Just wondering if they are part of the filtering system.
I am wondering just what the "damage" was that caused an engine to become an oil burner inside of two filter changes, Bobs preliminary testing seemed to indicate that no filter at all works pretty well if the oil is changed on responsible intervals.
The element replaceable canister filters from the 50s were not full flow. They just tapped off the oil gallery to the cam and filtered whatever came their way. The full flow filter came in with the totally replaceable unit.
Has anyone determined if the "felt" endcaps are permeable or impermeable? Just wondering if they are part of the filtering system.
I am wondering just what the "damage" was that caused an engine to become an oil burner inside of two filter changes, Bobs preliminary testing seemed to indicate that no filter at all works pretty well if the oil is changed on responsible intervals.
The element replaceable canister filters from the 50s were not full flow. They just tapped off the oil gallery to the cam and filtered whatever came their way. The full flow filter came in with the totally replaceable unit.
If the filter itself contributed some of its internal material to the flow and clogged up some oiler hole/passage maybe?
This is straight from Purolator when asked about cardboard and felt endcaps in their filters. I appreciate their honesty.
"All PureOnes have always used metal end caps.
All Premium Plus filters made in Fayetteville have always used metal end
caps.
Filters made in Salt Lake City used paper end discs including Premium Plus
models. Salt Lake City has been shut down for several years so the chances
of any Premium Plus models being in the field with paper end discs are low,
however there may still be some around."
Guess it depends on where you live and how the filters were distributed. I've never personally ran across any Purolators or Motorcrafts with anything but metal end caps up here in Illinois, so what I have said holds true for where I live.
"All PureOnes have always used metal end caps.
All Premium Plus filters made in Fayetteville have always used metal end
caps.
Filters made in Salt Lake City used paper end discs including Premium Plus
models. Salt Lake City has been shut down for several years so the chances
of any Premium Plus models being in the field with paper end discs are low,
however there may still be some around."
Guess it depends on where you live and how the filters were distributed. I've never personally ran across any Purolators or Motorcrafts with anything but metal end caps up here in Illinois, so what I have said holds true for where I live.
I really don't know how much can be attributed to the failed filters and I find it hard to believe that these two failures could cause this much damage. I know that I was consuming around 1 quart in 3000 miles before, and about three times that afterwards and ever since. A few months after removing the second oil filter I replaced the timing belt and therefore had to remove the head cover(with 205,000 miles). I found the engine was spotless.
I never thought that Champion Labs would have reimbursed me. In the questionnaire they sent me, it asked for the cost of damage. I just said around $500, given the circumstances. I didn't realize that they would pay me based on the amount I stated.
IMHO, they knew that the failures were unacceptable and the payout wasn't expensive. They probably figured it was better to pay for something like this than for the bad publicity it could have caused.
I have pictures if someone wants to host them for me.
Have them throw in round-trip plane tickets and you have a deal. I'll won't even charge them my usual consulting fees.
Is everybody reading Lubeowner's posts in other threads? Nothing except the high dollar German filters seem to take abuse very well. Champion, Purolator, NAPA Silver, Hastings, nothing seems that good. I decided to chop up the last 2 lightly used ST 3950's from my truck. Since having sludge problems 15 years ago, I haven't let a filter or oil go over 3 months. That isn't many miles for my truck, but cold starts, short trips, and stop and go traffic mostly with Pennzoil 5W-30 dino.
If you don't want to risk the Ecore ST 3600, you may want to look at the older design ST 3950. The one I bought last week is still the older design. It has the 20 mm thread, 144 sq. in. media, and a 2 1/2'' diameter gasket. I don't know the spec for the bypass, but it is at the threaded end, a coil spring pushing a metal plate against a rubber gasket. I carefully looked and couldn't see any sign of splits in the media or pulling away from the steel end caps. What more could you want for $2.07?
If you don't want to risk the Ecore ST 3600, you may want to look at the older design ST 3950. The one I bought last week is still the older design. It has the 20 mm thread, 144 sq. in. media, and a 2 1/2'' diameter gasket. I don't know the spec for the bypass, but it is at the threaded end, a coil spring pushing a metal plate against a rubber gasket. I carefully looked and couldn't see any sign of splits in the media or pulling away from the steel end caps. What more could you want for $2.07?
When I changed my oil this weekend, the new ST3600 was a remarkably different filter than the old ST3600 I took off the truck. The filter was physically smaller, the steel used in the canister seemed thinner, and the filter was MUCH lighter.
Is this the new ECORE design? It'll be my last ST filter unless results on this board lead me otherwise. To be fair, it does feel like a $2 filter now.
m
Is this the new ECORE design? It'll be my last ST filter unless results on this board lead me otherwise. To be fair, it does feel like a $2 filter now.
m
Rather than worry about a bunch of speculation here, cut it open when you take it off, take an objective look at it, and let us what you find. The Ecore is easy to recognize, look for a black plastic cage instead of the old perforated metal in the center. Should be able to tell from the box too if you retrieve it from the trash.
- Status
