ST3600 cut open

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
I agree some would. Put a $10 price on it or a made in Germany label and some would swoon over it.

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But sometimes you get both the 'made in germany' swoon units and the cost-saving results, as well as a superior design. I anticipate that the MANN filter is like this.

That said, thats not what were dealing with. Personally, I agree with T-Keith. So long as the unit doesnt leak or degrade, I dont see an issue. The ST filters vs. fram is similar to the castrol syntec vs. mobil 1 argument. A cheaper design is a cheaper design, and doesnt necessarily show any worse performance in most any situations. However, if its a cheaper design, it should be cheaper to purchase as well. I think the ST filter is cheaper to buy, because of the cheaper design, and so its a relative win. If it werent fairly priced, it wouldnt be a winning situation. This IMO is the 'rotella T synthetic 5w-40 group III at walmart for $12.82' from the synthetic world equivalent in the filter arena.

JMH

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
First, the "wide" pleats in the third picture is nothing more than where Champ glues the two ends of the pleats together to form a continuous seal the length of the element so there is no bypassing of oil through the seam. You generally get the type of spacing you see where that happens. As your other pictures show uniform pleat spacing everywhere else.

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In a previous post weren't you extolling the virtues of consistently spaced filter pleats? Didn't you also say that too much filter media would lead to bunching and restrict oil flow?

I have a Motorcraft, Amsoil and Wix filter cartridges in front of me right now. Not one has the inconsistent pleating arrangement we see in the Ecore photos above. And even if that didn't matter, the bypass valve design is scary enough.

You can use that crap Ecore filter all you want, but I certainly won't waste my money on it.

 

[Brian Miller_dup1]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
As for endcaps..

..please define their function within an element? I'd be interested in seeing the responce to this..

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As you can see in the 4th pic down, the end cap material wasn't attached to the media. On the sides of where I pulled it off, you can see some of the end cap sticking to the media, but about half just pulled off very easily. Quality control issue.

I personally won't use these. I will spend another dollar or two and stick with the Motorcraft.

I have never been able to pull filter media off of a glued on metal end cap.

I was really interested in cutting one of these open. I thought that the end caps were nylon, not felt?

I just wanted to post pics so that everyone could see what these were made off. Sorry, but you won't be seeing any used SuperTech pictures from me. Someone else is going to have to post these.

Brian

 

[ZR2RANDO]

"As you can see in the 4th pic down, the end cap material wasn't attached to the media. On the sides of where I pulled it off, you can see some of the end cap sticking to the media, but about half just pulled off very easily. Quality control issue."

Could you tell if there was ANY glue on that section that just pulled off, or was it just a total miss? That does look like poor QC on that aspect of the production line don't it? It doesn't take a big gap for oil to bypass that paper...
I think that metal leaf spring/base would effectively seal/compress that endcap material, but still...

Filter Guy I take it you have some contacts back at Champ labs? You may want to give them a call and give'em a good "wwhhaass-upppp". Any production line can have glitches, especially in the beginning, but they do need to be found quickly...
And no, this will not make me buy Frams....

At the moment I'm still using up my Advance Auto 2fer1s

[ March 02, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: ZR2RANDO ]

 

[Filter guy]

ZR2RANDO..I don't need to contact Champ..

They have a good QC program. And they've been building this design for some time and put it in multiple other brands besides Super Tech. They've made tens of thousands..guess how many warranties.

As a matter of fact, I think people would be surprised how many warranties Champ has per year for all brands. It's one of the reasons they are so succesfull at private labelling. Less warranties, more customer satisfaction. Bear in mind Champ builds about 500,000 filters per day. Their total number of warranties, for any type of filter built, were less than 1% of one days production. How much less, i'm not saying...

As for "cheap" design...lol
The investment in all new equipment was rather expensive for E-core. It is a purpose built production line. All new equipment. New electronics. New computer control. Etc.
Which is why none of the competitors in the automotive market have one of their own, yet. Cost to do it.

The "cheap" design is the old design with metal endcaps. That production equipment has long been paid for. The production costs in this style filter are less than for the E-core.


btw..the endcaps are not felt for E-core.

The end cap story:

They are designed to hold the pleats in place during manufacturing and during use.

No doubt metal is structurally stronger than "cardboard" or fiberous material. But you're not pounding the endcap with a hammer are you.

The flow or pressure the end cap sees during use in an automotive application is not enough , obviously, to cause a problem for the nonmetalic endcaps. Either those built in the USA or those built by European manufacturers.

The amount of pressure differential to collapse a center tube may or may not effect the endcaps. Generally the end caps do not distort. (remember we're talking metal center tube and metal endcaps). So far the same holds true for the E-core endcaps. As the lab have tested the collapse strength of the nylon core. They also cut the filter open to see where the core collapsed in order to determine the actual final design. At the same time, the end caps have remained in tact. Any automotive filter has a minimum spec of 100psi collapse. That's what the nylon core must meet. As well as a metal center tube. There are hot oil tests, cold oil tests, etc. as well.


But believe what you want. Champ will warranty against manufacturing defects ( as do all filter companies). So if you think your metal end cap filter or the E-core design has been manufactured wrong ..the same holds true.

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
ZR2RANDO..I don't need to contact Champ..

They have a good QC program. And they've been building this design for some time and put it in multiple other brands besides Super Tech. They've made tens of thousands..guess how many warranties.

As a matter of fact, I think people would be surprised how many warranties Champ has per year for all brands. It's one of the reasons they are so succesfull at private labelling. Less warranties, more customer satisfaction. Bear in mind Champ builds about 500,000 filters per day. Their total number of warranties, for any type of filter built, were less than 1% of one days production. How much less, i'm not saying...

As for "cheap" design...lol
The investment in all new equipment was rather expensive for E-core. It is a purpose built production line. All new equipment. New electronics. New computer control. Etc.
Which is why none of the competitors in the automotive market have one of their own, yet. Cost to do it.

The "cheap" design is the old design with metal endcaps. That production equipment has long been paid for. The production costs in this style filter are less than for the E-core.


btw..the endcaps are not felt for E-core.

The end cap story:

They are designed to hold the pleats in place during manufacturing and during use.

No doubt metal is structurally stronger than "cardboard" or fiberous material. But you're not pounding the endcap with a hammer are you.

The flow or pressure the end cap sees during use in an automotive application is not enough , obviously, to cause a problem for the nonmetalic endcaps. Either those built in the USA or those built by European manufacturers.

The amount of pressure differential to collapse a center tube may or may not effect the endcaps. Generally the end caps do not distort. (remember we're talking metal center tube and metal endcaps). So far the same holds true for the E-core endcaps. As the lab have tested the collapse strength of the nylon core. They also cut the filter open to see where the core collapsed in order to determine the actual final design. At the same time, the end caps have remained in tact. Any automotive filter has a minimum spec of 100psi collapse. That's what the nylon core must meet. As well as a metal center tube. There are hot oil tests, cold oil tests, etc. as well.


But believe what you want. Champ will warranty against manufacturing defects ( as do all filter companies). So if you think your metal end cap filter or the E-core design has been manufactured wrong ..the same holds true.

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I have no problem with the plastic center piece. It's the endcaps and the way the bypass/ADBV seals on them that looks a bit iffy to me.

I seriously doubt if the e-core cost more to manufacture than a metal endcap, coil spring bypass design. I worked in the plastics molding business. Once the tooling is paid for the parts are incredibly cheap to make. Fractions of a pound of an $.80 per pound resin and the cycle time on the machine. That filter was designed to cut manufacturing cost and increase the manufacturers profits, not provide better performance.

I don't have any problem with that. But I think I'll spend an extra dollar or so and get what I see is a better constructed filter.

As far as warranty, who bothers with it on a $2 item?. For that matter, who takes a filter apart beside a few of us on BITOG and a few engineers at assorted companies....

 

[ZR2RANDO]

Any time I see something new I don't run out and buy a million of em, but I don't just immediately trash them either..I try to keep an open mind and then see how they end up performing for a while.
The even/uneven spacing of the pleats doesn't bother me as much as if they were just short on the amount/quality of that media. I haven't checked my application yet so I can't vouch for that yet. The end caps may not be metal, but they look like a fiberglass/felt material that as long as it seals is ok by me..testing over time will tell about that as well (heck, maybe it even contributes to the filtration?? I couldn't tell if it is oil permeable or solid). My main concern would be the combo adbv/bypass valve. It is on the inlet side which is good, but it may/may not be a good working design is what needs to be verified somehow.
As to comparing them to Frams, there is no comparison..I don't know of any filter that I rate below the Frams..
Frams are more expensive, are notorious for having small amounts of media compared to their x-refs, always use that "button" bypass which is always on the closed end (and may be suspect in operation as well...), and does have cardboard ends which MAY??? not actually be an issue but given the cost of the filters should be upgraded.

Yeah, I'm still waiting to see some further after-action reports on them, but so far I don't see anything that says "stay-away-from-me" about them.

 

[427Z06]

quote:

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Originally posted by labman:
I trust a paper to felt glue joint more than a paper to metal joint.

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I understand your logic, but having cut open dozens of filters, I have yet to see a filter media, adhesive, metal endcap interface that was weak in any way. I've tried numerous times to pull the endcap away from the media, and it's quite obvious that this is actually the strongest part of the construction.

 

[JHZR2]

quote:

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Originally posted by pajim17057:
Clearly, the champ ecore is not in the same class as mann. I guess wally world now will have no good filters at all. Now that they are dumping motorcraft.

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Youre right, but I have to guess that the MANN design being as it is was done as a cost-saving mechanism. Otherwise, why change from metal ends, or why not replace them with soft rubber ends (as Ive seen some filters have)?

I have to imagine that a 1-piece media fab like the mann would be in the end cheaper and simpler than having a 2-3 part fabrication, such as any media with any endcap, felt, cardboard or metal would have. Plus it would contribute better to the sealing and rigidity of the media, and you get a top notch spacing every time inherently.

Seems to me that the MANN is tops in both cost-saving and quality, over even the best metal end-cap filter.

JMH

 

[Bryanccfshr]

I am reassessing my initial thoughts on this filter. What is the purpose of the endcaps in this design?

The flow of oil is controlled by the cointact of the center tube on the leaf spring and the endcap. flapper thing.

I don't have a problem with the felt endcaps.. heck the concept is similar to denso's. If the filter was absent of enscaps and the filter was held into place by a ring of resing Like the Denso it may be more visually appealing Like the Mann Above or the used Denso I cut up.

So it's ugly on the inside? It's a 2 buck oil filter and although I don't like the felt being in it the filter would probably do a fine job.

I think end caps are overrated they don't do anything in this design and are an assembly aid.


Now I have to go look at some Fram cut aways to see how the oil is routed. Are their endcaps of anypurpose or just for assembly/element ridgidity too?

 

[Triple_Se7en]

....plus all the Fram oil filter bashing is senseless too -- when you look at the amount of posts where engines have exceeded 200K using them exclusively with no mechanical problems.

A sludge motor design may call for a top-tier oil filter, but most car bodies wear-out from rust before a non-sludge motor using Frams or these new Ecores would serviceably hurt your engine throughout it's lifetime with name-brand dino 4K OCIs.

I typically use middle-tier filter like Motorcraft & AC-Delco using 3K dino OCIs & 8K Synthetic OCIs with filter changes after 4K (1/2 way). From posts I've read, that's extra protection. For me -- it's peace of mind even though the el-cheapo Fram or Ecore would of been OK to use & saved me a few dollars.

[ March 03, 2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Triple_Se7en ]

 

[motorguy222]

[/QUOTE]As you can see in the 4th pic down, the end cap material wasn't attached to the media. On the sides of where I pulled it off, you can see some of the end cap sticking to the media, but about half just pulled off very easily.
I just wanted to post pics so that everyone could see what these were made off.
Brian [/QB][/QUOTE]

I too thought that it looked as if the element was NOT sealed to the endcap.

This is a serious issue because it would seem that the oil IS going between the two unfiltered.

If there is NO seal between the two,hot oil is most likely going to find its way through such.

I just dont see that much difference between this filter and Fram.

The Fram uses cardboard and this filter uses felt.

If we take a close look at the bottom of the filter,we can see that the spring only seals with the plastic frame,this too is questionable.

Plastic and metal dont seal up very well,even with the felt.

Since the seal is only at the frame,the filter element itself is NOT sealed in almost half of its diameter,a huge area to leak at.

This is a cheap filter,I would be MORE inclined to use a Fram.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

Lots of guilty verdicts here -- even before a used filter analysis.

In a courtroom, if we convicted every defendant on looks-alone, there would be more employees in prisons than there are working in the entire auto industry.

 

[labman]

''I just dont see that much difference between this filter and Fram.''

Looks to me like it has a lot more filter area than any Fram, and lacks the off center, thrown together look.

 

[motorguy222]

In my post,how many times have we heard others say the same things when it comes to Fram or other brands of filters?

Probably hundreds of times.

The filter in question here is plain and open to all that want to look.

The element ISNT sealed in almost half of its diameter.

Plastic and metal dont seal well together.

It seems that some are upholding the very same things that they bashed in other filters.

It even seems that the ADV would be a bad seal.
There just isnt much to seal it to.

In my opinion,this is a bad filter.

 

[T-Keith]

The ADBV and leaf spring seal against the center tube, therefor it wouldn't matter if the endcap was attached at all as long as the glue covered the ends of the pleats. Like I said it's no where near Fram, they seal against the endcap and use the endcap to center the filter element.

-T

 

[blupupher]

If this is on the same plane as Fram (I really have no opinion, because I use neither), at least they are not chargning a premium price for a cheap filter. You get what you pay for.

 

[Filter guy]

quote:

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Originally posted by 427Z06:

quote:

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Originally posted by Filter guy:
As for "cheap" design...lol
The investment in all new equipment was rather expensive for E-core. It is a purpose built production line. All new equipment. New electronics. New computer control. Etc.
Which is why none of the competitors in the automotive market have one of their own, yet. Cost to do it.

The "cheap" design is the old design with metal endcaps. That production equipment has long been paid for. The production costs in this style filter are less than for the E-core.

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This is false logic. Even if you never provided engineering support for a production line like I have, even the casual observer will quickly figure out that new equipment doesn't instantly translate into superior quality. In fact it's quite the opposite. Design flaws, worker training, equipment fine tuning, supplier issues, parts mismatch with production processes, etc, can take months, and sometimes years to get right.

And as somebody already pointed out, how many field failures are you actually going to catch with something like an oil filter given it's failure mode? If your phone stops working or your cars dies, you know immediately something isn't right. How many people actually even know where the oil filter is located on there car, let alone if it's failing?

You think any of these people brought their vehicle in for service because they "knew" the oil filter failed?

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002237#000000

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False logic? Spend 7 figures for a new production line and it doesn't impact manufacturing costs v a production line that has long been paid for, amortized off the books, and the only costs are maintenance?
Companies need you in accounting.

As for warranties..there are mainly two types.
One, where an engine failure or other problem happens and the filter may be the source.

Two, collapsed filter. Any mechanic taking off a filter looks, or should, at the old element. One can see a collapsed tube. Or the filter "feels" funny or rattles when taken off. This is another sign of problems. ( never put a filter on that rattles when new as there is a defect when it was built.)

In either case if the filter is at fault, the filter company will pay for necessary repairs. Or future repairs up to a time limit.

You're just lucky you've never encountered a problem. But when your engine is making noises it shouldn't and you think you've got a bad filter ( or the service mechanic thinks it could be a filter problem), you're likely to pay attention. Typically it is the auto dealers service department where they see engine failures or problems and if they can pass the warranty costs onto the filter manufacturer as opposed to their own warranty, they do. I think you do a diservice to those who work on engines and whether or not they would ever "think" it was a filter problem. If your engine is out of the factory warranty..the filter warranty is still innplace. So your 67 Thunderbird has an engine failure and the filter failed, guess what..you get a repaired engine for free.

And yes, people do think it is a filter even when it isn't. As someone who sold filters in the trucking industry, you can bet your sweet you know what that those people are well aware of what a filter does. Especially when they are looking at $10-20,000 to repair their motor. The biggest claim ( paid incidentally) I personally knew of was for over $40,000.

 

[99]

quote:

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Originally posted by jsharp:
I'm not impressed with the felt endcaps or the assembly quality. Somehow, I think if this were a Fram design people would be trashing it.

I'll stick to Motorcraft, Purolator and Wix myself...

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EXACTLY what I was thinking! There's some "2facism" on this board and you're seeing it right now. Where are all the Fram bashers now? People jump all over Fram for their cardboard end caps. How come nobody's jumping all over the felt end caps and the plastic tube on the STs? The Frams are built like tanks compared to these seemingly POS ST filters. I've never used a ST or Fram filter in my life, so they can both go bankrupt for all I care.

Purolator and Motorcraft for life.

 

[Filter guy]

Well you better get used to non metallic filters. Due to environmental concerns engine companies are going to the non metallic style elements in their future engine designs.