Filter design should be the least of their worries.
ST3600 cut open
- Thread starter Brian Miller_dup1
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I would not be suprised to start seeing all plastic filters (Can, center tube, and "spring").
Looks to me like Champion is making a low cost/sufficient quality filter in this ecore design...may not be a $10 filter but they ARE ONLY CHARGING 2 bucks (and 7 cents). These pictures show what looks like a QC issue, not a design flaw. Quality issues get fixed/adjusted, design issues have to go back to the drawing board. We have yet to see how the combo bypass/adbv works so the jury is still out on that detail. There is plenty of media (visually, still have to measure) so bypassing may not be as big an issue as in some lesser filters....
as I said before,
"As to comparing them to Frams, there is no comparison..I don't know of any filter that I rate below the Frams..
Frams are more expensive, are notorious for having small amounts of media compared to their x-refs, always use that "button" bypass which is always on the closed end (and may be suspect in operation as well...), and does have cardboard ends which MAY??? not actually be an issue but given the cost of the filters should be upgraded."
Frams are designed to be cheaply made, and the design shows it, and their performance has shown it over the years....and they still cost a mid-range price. There is no question that all the Champion clones, and the purolator clones, that cost the same or less than Frams, clearly outperform Frams..
sorry, went off there didn't I..
These are relatively new filters, it is good to see some pics, especially some real world bad examples....What I am looking forward to is more examples so we can make some legitimate assessments.
as I said before,
"As to comparing them to Frams, there is no comparison..I don't know of any filter that I rate below the Frams..
Frams are more expensive, are notorious for having small amounts of media compared to their x-refs, always use that "button" bypass which is always on the closed end (and may be suspect in operation as well...), and does have cardboard ends which MAY??? not actually be an issue but given the cost of the filters should be upgraded."
Frams are designed to be cheaply made, and the design shows it, and their performance has shown it over the years....and they still cost a mid-range price. There is no question that all the Champion clones, and the purolator clones, that cost the same or less than Frams, clearly outperform Frams..
sorry, went off there didn't I..
These are relatively new filters, it is good to see some pics, especially some real world bad examples....What I am looking forward to is more examples so we can make some legitimate assessments.
I have yet to see a metal end cap for my Ecotec cartridge, not AC, STP, Fram, Hastings, WIX, Purolator, or ST. They all have solidly fastened plastic end caps and plastic center tubes. I thought the E-core was going to be the same thing only in a can. I am not thrilled with the felt end caps. I do think they should be given a chance.
This is false logic. Even if you never provided engineering support for a production line like I have, even the casual observer will quickly figure out that new equipment doesn't instantly translate into superior quality. In fact it's quite the opposite. Design flaws, worker training, equipment fine tuning, supplier issues, parts mismatch with production processes, etc, can take months, and sometimes years to get right.
And as somebody already pointed out, how many field failures are you actually going to catch with something like an oil filter given it's failure mode? If your phone stops working or your cars dies, you know immediately something isn't right. How many people actually even know where the oil filter is located on there car, let alone if it's failing?
You think any of these people brought their vehicle in for service because they "knew" the oil filter failed?
http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002237#000000
I am not married to the idea of metal end caps.
As far as Ecore being designed and manufactured only with the goal of making a better product ... I don't buy it. I would bet a lot of money that the internal case for the project included projected reduced per unit production costs. Care to publish any of the design briefs and financial reviews which went on inside the company as part of getting the go-ahead on Ecore?
Your position would be more credible if you admitted that one of the goals is to reduce manufacturing costs in order to deal with the onslaught of Asian imports while trying to stay in the game. I have to believe that those filter factories in Thailand, Korea and China which are adding capacity all the time would love nothing more than to push container loads of filters a day into the US OEM and aftermarket.
John
JHZR2
Staff member
You know what I think... All cars should have euro-style 'cannisters' for the filters, on top of the engine. No busting your hands because of poorly placed filters, no spills, no messes, just the simplest way to do a filter change possible. Plus, then all one would have to buy is the media itself, no metal outer can, baseplate, etc. All just a waste of materials if you ask me... How much of the metal content of a typical filter ever gets recycled?
JMH
JMH
two questions- for nissan/toyota owners whats left for traditional constructin easily found at parts places?
Wix and Purolater?
how do these fibr end caps hold up in overuse situations like the pix in a recent topic showing all the frams falling apart - does this new felt stuff get loose and into the system? maybe its cheaper cause its cheaper?
Wix and Purolater?
how do these fibr end caps hold up in overuse situations like the pix in a recent topic showing all the frams falling apart - does this new felt stuff get loose and into the system? maybe its cheaper cause its cheaper?
Use one if you haven't already and I think you will change your mind. The can filters have their own drawbacks, first and foremost is that the anti-drain-back valve (if present) does not get changed with the filter. Second, the fasteners that hold the canister together are suspect. Remember, you change your oil when hot and this often means that you will be taking a steel bolt out of an aluminum housing while they are hot too. Recipe for stripped threads, IMO. Finally, the canister filter is much bulkier than the spin on in most cases and so it harder to locate on the engine.
I agree with the environmental impact of using one material. However, I disagree that the cannister style is more user friendly.
I like my Ecotec. Some of the european cannisters have given cannisters a bad name here.
I have always turned in my well drained, maybe cut open filters with my tin cans.
Non metallic filters isn't the issue. Poor quality filters coupled with a questionable design is.
JHZR2
Staff member
Use one if you haven't already and I think you will change your mind. The can filters have their own drawbacks, first and foremost is that the anti-drain-back valve (if present) does not get changed with the filter. Second, the fasteners that hold the canister together are suspect. Remember, you change your oil when hot and this often means that you will be taking a steel bolt out of an aluminum housing while they are hot too. Recipe for stripped threads, IMO. Finally, the canister filter is much bulkier than the spin on in most cases and so it harder to locate on the engine.
I agree with the environmental impact of using one material. However, I disagree that the cannister style is more user friendly. [/QB][/QUOTE]
And I respectfully disagree with you.
I have these on my:
91 BMW 318i
83 MB 300D
04 Saab 9-3
As well as on my father's 96 MB E300D
So much more convenient than changing the filter in any of our cars, even my mother's 97 plymouth breeze! I wouldnt trade these cannisters for anything. Youre right about the hot bolt, I always change my oil hot, and the bolt on the BMW's cannister is annoying. On the old MB, though, for example, the bolts are built into the cannister, so I only need to remove nuts. On the other cars, just a big socket is necessary, so its no big deal.
If I had my way, all cars would come with cannister/cartridge type setups!
JMH
Ditto.
As far as your other commets. They're to silly to waste time on.
I think that Filter guy makes a lot of sense, but I'd like to elaborate on filter failures based on my personal experience.
A year ago I had two oil filter failures back-to-back on ST-3614 filters I used on a Toyota. These were the old design with metal endcaps. My car went from burning no oil to being an oil burner during the time I used these oil filters. I cut open these filters and found both of them had failed.
The first one had a rip in a pleat next to the baseplate. The second one had the pleats torn at the glue to the baseplates on both sides, collapsing the pleats. The center tubes were unaffected. I attributed the failures to the clicker-type bypass valves which apparently didn't open during cold starts.
What does this tell me? If the pressure upstream is great enough, something has to give. Since the endcaps, center tube and glue are pretty strong, that made the media the weakest point.
Oil pressure doesn't "pull" at the endcaps. It pushes. With fiber end caps, the failures I experienced probably would have shifted to a different area because the end caps no longer force the stress riser to be at the cap/media interface. If you have any experience in designing products to minimize stress and fatigue, you'd know what I'm talking about.
And now that the "clicker" bypass valve was replaced with the Ecore design, this failure just can't happen.
BTW: Champion Labs stands behind their products. I sent them the filters, and they compensated me for the damages. I'm an Engineer, and their old design just didn't make sense. The Ecore design does.
A year ago I had two oil filter failures back-to-back on ST-3614 filters I used on a Toyota. These were the old design with metal endcaps. My car went from burning no oil to being an oil burner during the time I used these oil filters. I cut open these filters and found both of them had failed.
The first one had a rip in a pleat next to the baseplate. The second one had the pleats torn at the glue to the baseplates on both sides, collapsing the pleats. The center tubes were unaffected. I attributed the failures to the clicker-type bypass valves which apparently didn't open during cold starts.
What does this tell me? If the pressure upstream is great enough, something has to give. Since the endcaps, center tube and glue are pretty strong, that made the media the weakest point.
Oil pressure doesn't "pull" at the endcaps. It pushes. With fiber end caps, the failures I experienced probably would have shifted to a different area because the end caps no longer force the stress riser to be at the cap/media interface. If you have any experience in designing products to minimize stress and fatigue, you'd know what I'm talking about.
And now that the "clicker" bypass valve was replaced with the Ecore design, this failure just can't happen.
BTW: Champion Labs stands behind their products. I sent them the filters, and they compensated me for the damages. I'm an Engineer, and their old design just didn't make sense. The Ecore design does.
What do you engineer? I certainly want to avoid those products.
For a buck more or maybe even less, you can get a far superior Purolator Premium Plus filter. That's the smart move.
Yeah I know, and I like purolators just fine too. I was just saying that at least they are charging an inexpensive price for an inexpensive filter, time will tell whether they turn out to be "inexpensive" or "cheap"...
And what if the Puro boys start eliminating metal in their filters?
And what if the Puro boys start eliminating metal in their filters?
And I had two filters that failed in exactly that location! Fortunately you are not in the business of designing filters.
Thankfully i'm not. That's engineerings job.
"failed"..exactly how?
I have one on my car, went 9,000 miles. No failure. And I bought it at Wal Mart. It wasn't any "special" filter.
Maybe on the European cars, but my made in America Ecotec doesn't have any of those issues. Unscrew the cap, pull it and filter out, pull the cartridge off, clip a new one on, and gently tighten up the cap. I didn't even have to hunt up a huge 36 mm socket. Maybe somebody in GM management doesn't share the disdain elsewhere for those that change filters.
The canister is part of the fast heating aluminum block, contributing to better oil flow on a cold start.
Now, when is the savings on materials going to be passed on to the consumer?
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