Splitting hairs on "synthetic" definition?

[kschachn]

And I still think that in the end (especially if German laws are hard to change), Germany will be the loser with that requirement. As technologies change and improvements come along, Germany will be restricted to what constitutes and defines a synthetic oil.

 

[KCJeep]

Nice post Trav.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And I still think that in the end (especially if German laws are hard to change), Germany will be the loser with that requirement. As technologies change and improvements come along, Germany will be restricted to what constitutes and defines a synthetic oil.

No, just the opposite. They can and do get semi and pseudo synthetics (USA full synthetic) anywhere but there are premium products for those who want them that are easily identified. Its a good law that keeps the advertising (and the prices) honest and gives the consumer the choice.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And I still think that in the end (especially if German laws are hard to change), Germany will be the loser with that requirement. As technologies change and improvements come along, Germany will be restricted to what constitutes and defines a synthetic oil.

No, just the opposite. They can and do get semi and pseudo synthetics (USA full synthetic) anywhere but there are premium products for those who want them that are easily identified. Its a good law that keeps the advertising (and the prices) honest and gives the consumer the choice.

But The catch-22 is that Mobil (and anyone else) isn't going to put the same level of R&D/Testing hours into a Germany-only product that they do into a global product. So you wind up with a "premium" product that while it has full synthetic (by German law) base stock, the entire formulation may (or may not be) as good as the global "semi-synthetic" product. If I were a German consumer, I'd buy the global product, or buy from one of the smaller companies that caters to the German market specifically.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Trav

As it stands the companies have to make a special formula just for Germany if they want to call it "Full synthetic" which is a real PITA for them

Does any company actually do this? Lubro-Moly maybe?

 

[benjy]

looking at the Amsoil web site + the use of propriety-bull- tells me that Amsoil like the others use only as much of the more costly PAO base oils, little to no ester oils. they forgot to mention their formulations are for the most profit as well!! i am - was strictly an Amsoil user, but since they are "cheaping out" IMO i will use Redline for my hot air-oil cooled Victory motorcycle + my modified + boosted audi TT, my plane jane 08 colorado will do well on Mobil I which is "supposed" to have some of their own PAO base oil in the mix. being retired i drive about 5,000 miles per vehicle including my 2 motorcycles, yearly changes won't be stressing any quality oil for sure!! i do realize the cheaper Amsoil blends are surely group III base oils with a lesser add pack, i dont feel the xtra additives in signature series + their other costly blends are worth the $$$$

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Originally Posted By: Trav

As it stands the companies have to make a special formula just for Germany if they want to call it "Full synthetic" which is a real PITA for them

Does any company actually do this? Lubro-Moly maybe?

Isn't the "Made in Germany" Edge still a pao oil?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Originally Posted By: Trav

As it stands the companies have to make a special formula just for Germany if they want to call it "Full synthetic" which is a real PITA for them

Does any company actually do this? Lubro-Moly maybe?

They sure do. Mobil, Castrol, Shell, LM, etc all have formula's. produced in Germany for German use. You can see it on the bottles of some oils, for North America only and such things. To the poster that said Germans would be better off buying a global semi synthetic instead of full synthetic. That makes no sense at all. Its not that they don't export some of the products produced in Germany they export plenty, they may water it down for global sales or sell old formula's like GC in the USA. No oil company is going to tell you how much of this that and the other is in the formula or where some of the components came from. Off the shelf oil in the US until the last 10 years or so was basically lower grade in comparison to whet was available there.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm

Isn't the "Made in Germany" Edge still a pao oil?

Yes, but so is the one sold here.

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Trav

Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete

Originally Posted By: Trav

As it stands the companies have to make a special formula just for Germany if they want to call it "Full synthetic" which is a real PITA for them

Does any company actually do this? Lubro-Moly maybe?

They sure do. Mobil, Castrol, Shell, LM, etc all have formula's. produced in Germany for German use.

Can you give an example of such an oil made by XOM (Mobil) specifically for the German market? I'm looking at mobil1.de, and they're all SHC/Synthese Technology. I don't see any "Voll Synthese" ones.

 

[Merkava_4]

Only the 100% Ester based oils are real synthetic. All the others are super refined dino.

 

[Trav]

I saw some Mobil 1 0w40 last year that had Voll Synthese on the label, I have to look this year it might have been NOS. Its my understanding that 80% of the lubricant must be full synthetic, some German forums are reporting the SHC as 72% If that's correct or not i have no idea. I rarely used Mobil there, mostly Castrol and sometimes Shell. The page they use to go into the full synthetic explanation is now.

Quote:

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[BikeWhisperer]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Only the 100% Ester based oils are real synthetic. All the others are super refined dino.

So you are saying polyalphaolefin is super refined dino?

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: BikeWhisperer

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Only the 100% Ester based oils are real synthetic. All the others are super refined dino.

So you are saying polyalphaolefin is super refined dino?

In addition, everyone who claims that severe hydrocracking is just "super refined" or "highly refined" oil is talking out the wrong orifice. Good for a sound bite but completely incorrect and uninformed.

 

[weasley]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko

I saw a web site that said the only four (4) true synthetic motor oils available today are: Mobil 1, Amsoil, Royal Purple and Redline.

This also plays into the huge misconception that 'Mobil 1' is an oil. It is not, it is a range of oils. Not all of them will be 100% Group IV/'true' synthetic (by your definition). Additionally, there are plenty of products from other oil suppliers that are full-PAO (or other). When people say "you should use Mobil 1" that's like saying "you should drive a VW Golf" - it doesn't tell you which variant to drive. There's a difference between a 1.4 SE and a R32 (both still 'Golfs' though).

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: Merkava_4

Only the 100% Ester based oils are real synthetic. All the others are super refined dino.

Doesn't it all come from the ground??

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: kschachn

And I still think that in the end (especially if German laws are hard to change), Germany will be the loser with that requirement. As technologies change and improvements come along, Germany will be restricted to what constitutes and defines a synthetic oil.

Since when does Germany or China or Japan or UK or any other country, decide what oil is considered synthetic anyway. The standards I follow are decided here.

 

[Tom NJ]

Originally Posted By: Ed_Flecko

Are there any consumer grade PAO based, synthetic motor oils and how do you positively know that???

There are only two ways to know the type and percent of base oils used in a motor oil: obtain this information directly from the manufacturer (unlikely), or run a gas chromatography (GC) scan on the oil. GC will distinguish among PAOs, esters, ANs, and petroleum distillates (Groups I, II, and III), but usually will not distinguish among the petroleum distillates (i.e. tell a Group I from a II or III). Base oil blend compositions and percentages can not be reliably determined from physical property data such as pour point, flash point, viscosity index, or volatility, although some general or directional clues can sometimes be deducted from such data. The term "True Synthetic" is obsolete and irrelevant in today's world. Most oils contain optimized base oil blends aimed at specific performance and/or marketing targets, and "True" no longer automatically denotes higher performance. Additives dominate performance and one can easily formulate great conventional oils and poor "true" synthetics. Industry and OEM Approvals are a better indicator of performance than base oil composition. Tom NJ

 

[Quattro Pete]

Thank you Tom NJ for putting this thread to rest. Your response should be a sticky.

 

[weasley]

Let us also not forget that even if an oil is formulated with 100% PAO/ester it will still contain a not-insignificant amount of mineral oil. The additives that are used in the oil are usually diluted in mineral oil to ease handling and blending. A "full synthetic" description relates <span style="font-style: italic">only</span> to the base oils selected, not the additives.