Originally Posted By: Garak
No, not necessarily. PAOs do essentially "come from the ground" if one wants to be picky, but if one also wishes to be picky, fatty acids and alcohols come from nature, too, don't they?
Splitting hairs on "synthetic" definition?
- Thread starter Ed_Flecko
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Yes fatty acids and alcohols come from nature, but NOT crude oil. And since the very first motor oils were made from crude oil, any chemical compounds derived outside the virtues of crude oil makes them a synthetic. I predict your reply to this post will be about how your definition of "synthetic" differs from mine; which proves my whole point: the word "synthetic" is a relative term.
Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Just because the German politicians decided a definition doesnt mean we have to follow their incorrect decision.
Why buy real better, the other stuff passes the sniff test, it looks like butter, spreads like butter and taste something like butter, it must be butter. LOL
In my house too.
Originally Posted By: shannow
just sayin'...we buy butter in my house.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Garak
Your quote still doesn't demonstrate why you don't "believe" Group IV based oils to be synthetic.
weasley, you'll have a better chance of explaining it to your dog.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I predict your reply to this post will be about how your definition of "synthetic" differs from mine; which proves my whole point: the word "synthetic" is a relative term.
In the end, I do know what a marketed synthetic is versus a technical synthetic. Realistically, we don't know what most of the products marked as synthetic really are, anyhow. There are a few examples we know, but plenty more that we do not.
In any case, you use only ILSAC rated fake synthetics anyhow. Originally Posted By: Shannow
So which specifications would YOU use to determine that an oil is "synthetic"?
Would any dino that meets those specs also be "synthetic" ?
Would TGMO not be able to be labelled "synthetic" anymore because it only meets SN/GF5 ?
Just to set the record straight:
- The ruling on Group III being synthetic was made by the National Advertising Division (NAD) of the Better Business Bureau and pertained only to a specific Group III+ being used by Castrol at the time. While hearings were held and expert witnesses testified, this was not a "court of law" and the decision was not legally binding. Marketers expanded the ruling to all Group IIIs knowing that no one would challenge it.
- The term "synthetic" refers to a process (synthesis), not the origin of the starting materials. The traditional definition of "synthetic basestock" as used for many years by the SAE prior to 1996 when they stepped back from the controversy referred to chemical compounds produced by chemical synthesis and manufactured by organic reactions from relatively pure organic starting materials. This is consistent with most dictionary definitions which define synthesis as the formation of a complex compound by the combination of two or more simpler compounds, elements, or radicals. By these definitions, PAOs, esters, and some Group III+ base oils would be "synthetic" (produced by synthesis) and regular Group III and below would not. However, a more common definition in wide use is that synthetic simply means "made by man" rather than occurring in nature. By this definition, regular Group IIIs would be synthetic since over 90% of the starting molecules are changed by man through hydrocracking, isomerization, and hyrogenation and did not exist in the original mixture. Arguing over which definition is more valid is indeed splitting hairs and an exercise in futility.
- Polyol esters are reacted from liquid fatty acids and solid polyol alcohols. The acids may be from either natural sources (coconuts, palm kernels, castor beans, tallow) or from petrochemicals derived from crude oil (olefins). The alcohols are generally made from petrochemicals derived from crude oil (acetaldehyde, formaldehyde, butyraldehyde). The reaction process is synthesis.
- Diesters used in synthetic lubricants are reacted from solid dibasic acids and liquid monohydric alcohols. Some of these reactants are made from natural sources (tallow, castor beans) but most are petrochemicals derived from crude oil. The reaction process is synthesis.
- PAOs are made from alphaolefins which are made from ethylene derived from crude oil. The process is synthesis.
- Some Group III+ would meet the traditional definition of synthesis since they are built up from smaller molecules. Most regular Group IIIs would meet the more common definition of synthetic (made by man) since existing molecules are broken and changed by the actions of man.
- Most synthetic motor oils are based on blends of Group III, Group IV, and/or Group V base oils. The manufacturers do not tell us which types are used or the percentages. Guessing is, once again, an exercise in futility.
While all of this may be meaningful to purists, from a practical standpoint all we should care about is how the motor oil performs in our engines under our driving styles and conditions. This information can be derived from approvals and certifications by industry groups and OEMs and from published physical properties.
Tom NJ
Thank you
The German case was a court case and did in fact refer to the base stock of the product.
Basically if it is derived from crude regardless what you do to it, hydro crack it, refine it or whatever it is not legally synthetic and is not taxed as such.
GTL is by definition full synthetic.
The US was not a court case as you just a meaningless NAD ruling as you say that took nothing into consideration. I disagree it is not an exercise in futility, without ground oil you could not produce the product, regardless of the process you are still just converting oil into a better oil but its still oil.
With GTL you don't need ground oil. Oil from a gas is a 100% man made operation.
I don't think anyone is arguing about the quality of the end result and how it will work in an engine, thats probably really splitting hairs.
By definition what is a semi synthetic in the USA? A bend of a lesser quality dino oil and a better dino oil or true synthetic and dino like it is in Germany (it can be a mix of IV/V and II/III)?
Bitog is a world wide forum so it does matter what the real definition is, not just to the US poster. Prices are based on this unlike in the US where they almost throw this stuff at you on your way out.
People would soon change their tune when an oil change on a big sump car engine runs $300+ with a filter, my last OC there was $280 but i know what i have in the sump.
Changing the law there would be like giving the oil companies a license to steal. Mobil tried it with slick advertising calling it SHC and charging premium prices.
Originally Posted By: Trav
GTL is by definition full synthetic.
A synthetic chemical is one made by chemical synthesis as opposed to extraction or refinement. It doesn't matter where the raw materials come from. If it did, than nothing would be synthetic since all raw materials eventually trace back to mother earth, including natural gas. The definition hinges on the process by which the final product is made. One can make a synthetic product by reacting two natural ingredients into a new compound.
With respect to lubricants, Germany is the one exception because, as you say, they actually codified the definition of synthetic lubricant base oils into law. That law, however, does not redefine chemical synthesis, which has been established in the chemical industry for decades. It simply clarifies which lubricant base oils may be labeled as synthetic.
Tom NJ
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Trav
GTL is by definition full synthetic.
To me in layman's terms,a synthetic oil would have to be made from something that didn't begin as an oil. Since group III oils are made from crude oil,"to me" it's a pseudo synth. Not saying they're bad (see sig as I'm using said pseudo synth).
But afaik all otc synthetics are grp III pseudo synths (not sure about API RP though).
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Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
Just to set the record straight [...]
MolaKule
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Originally Posted By: Trav
GTL is by definition full synthetic.
MolaKule
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
A synthetic chemical is one made by chemical synthesis as opposed to extraction or refinement. It doesn't matter where the raw materials come from. If it did, than nothing would be synthetic since all raw materials eventually trace back to mother earth, including natural gas. The definition hinges on the process by which the final product is made. One can make a synthetic product by reacting two natural ingredients into a new compound.
With respect to lubricants, Germany is the one exception because, as you say, they actually codified the definition of synthetic lubricant base oils into law. That law, however, does not redefine chemical synthesis, which has been established in the chemical industry for decades. It simply clarifies which lubricant base oils may be labeled as synthetic.
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