Splitting hairs on "synthetic" definition?

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Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So which specifications would YOU use to determine that an oil is "synthetic"? Would any dino that meets those specs also be "synthetic" ? Would TGMO not be able to be labelled "synthetic" anymore because it only meets SN/GF5 ?
Nowhere in my argument was I equating a Group II product to "synthetic". Just like no one is trying to say margarine should be called "butter". Are you going to go as far as to state that a severely hydrocracked product is not synthetic?
Your statement was quite clear that "specifications" mattered over german law...So I asked what specifications would define your synthetic...pretty clear...and if GrII falls into them, and TGMO falls out of them, it's your statement to defend. GrIII, I accept that the industry is handing out GrIII as "synthetic"...Mobil nearly had a mutiny from their tech staff in Oz when they made the GrIII "synthetic"...fixed that...no tech staff on phones any more. Personally, I still see GTL as "synthetic", with XHVI "mineral derived with the performance of a synthetic" like it was when Shell brought it to the market. synthesis definition.
 
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Originally Posted By: Shannow
So I asked what specifications would define your synthetic...pretty clear...
AFAIK, no OEM spec defines 'synthetic'. Synthetic is not a spec. A spec defines performance characteristics with disregard for what the lubricant is made of. It could be made of maple syrup. The OEM would not care, just as long as it passed all the required tests.
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: Trav
GTL is by definition full synthetic.
Is that a German Law definition or an interpretation of current usage?
The Fischer–Tropsch method was taken into consideration the German legal definition was written years ago. At one time i had the whole legal process document on my PC but that was 13 years ago. I am not really bothered about it one way or another, any modern synthetic group III or otherwise is fine with me especially at the price in the USA. I also don't have any problem when people say group III a pseudo or semi synthetic with performance similar to true synthetics, that more or less mirrors my belief. Again it has nothing to do with how well the oil works in the engine, just a real definition, not one the oil companies would want us to believe in their advertising.
 
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Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
Originally Posted By: Shannow
So I asked what specifications would define your synthetic...pretty clear...
AFAIK, no OEM spec defines 'synthetic'. Synthetic is not a spec. A spec defines performance characteristics with disregard for what the lubricant is made of. It could be made of maple syrup. The OEM would not care, just as long as it passed all the required tests.
Agreed, just trying to get the poster to clarify his position that he'd take a marketer's performance specifications as a definition of synthetic over the German legal version of the definition.
 

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Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Garak
Your quote still doesn't demonstrate why you don't "believe" Group IV based oils to be synthetic.
Because Group IV Polyalphaolefin basestocks are still derived from mineral oil. Polyol Ester basestocks on the other hand are derived from fatty acids and alcohols. When's the last time you've seen fatty acids and alcohols in crude oil? wink
And this exposes the gap between your knowledge and your preaching. PAO starts from a simple ethylene molecule. Two carbons, two hydrogens. This is found in large volumes in crude oil and gas deposits. It is polymerised to form 1-decene (or similar), which is then oligimerised to make PAOs of the viscosity you are looking for. Using a simple building block, you have [b]synthesised a molecule. The synthesis is what makes it synthetic. "Synthetic" does not refer to the ingredients but to the process. Now let's look at polyol esters. Where do you think those acids and alcohols come from? It all ends up back at the refinery and crude oil (via an intermediary chemical process plant).[/b]
Good explanation Weasely. thumbsup
 
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Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Originally Posted By: weasley
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Originally Posted By: Garak
Your quote still doesn't demonstrate why you don't "believe" Group IV based oils to be synthetic.
Because Group IV Polyalphaolefin basestocks are still derived from mineral oil. Polyol Ester basestocks on the other hand are derived from fatty acids and alcohols. When's the last time you've seen fatty acids and alcohols in crude oil? wink
And this exposes the gap between your knowledge and your preaching. PAO starts from a simple ethylene molecule. Two carbons, two hydrogens. This is found in large volumes in crude oil and gas deposits. It is polymerised to form 1-decene (or similar), which is then oligimerised to make PAOs of the viscosity you are looking for. Using a simple building block, you have [b]synthesised a molecule. The synthesis is what makes it synthetic. "Synthetic" does not refer to the ingredients but to the process. Now let's look at polyol esters. Where do you think those acids and alcohols come from? It all ends up back at the refinery and crude oil (via an intermediary chemical process plant).[/b]
Good explanation Weasely. thumbsup
Thanks.... but I just noticed my own mistake (that nobody else picked up on!)... ethylene is C2H4. duh
 
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Originally Posted By: weasley
Thanks.... but I just noticed my own mistake (that nobody else picked up on!)... ethylene is C2H4. duh
Yeah, I noticed, but since the post was so good I decided not to get picky. smile Tom NJ
 
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