Audi Junkie - on some cars I agree. Changing the filter is 99% of the job hassle, so just change the oil. On the other hand on other cars, it's quite simple to drop the filter. To each his own. A crock? Whatever.
Someone at Valvoline has been taking lessons from Amsoil
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I bet commercial vehicles such as taxicabs do drive 35K miles/year.
Why have we not seen tests done on these commercial vehicles using Amsoil?
Personally, since it is my vehicle running on my nickles, I'd rather stick with a certified "sub-standard" synthetic such as Mobil 1 SS.
Why have we not seen tests done on these commercial vehicles using Amsoil?
Personally, since it is my vehicle running on my nickles, I'd rather stick with a certified "sub-standard" synthetic such as Mobil 1 SS.
The recommended drain interval for commercial service vehicles is up to three times the normal number of miles, or six months - Whichever comes first....A taxi or police car spends lots of time idling and you want to take that into account.
The idea behind the 25k/1 yr change interval is actually quite sound.... If you drive 25k within a years time, thats 500 miles every week or approx 75 miles a day. If you don't do any driving on the weekends, that's 100 miles a day. This means you are doing lots of highway driving and/or you have a vehicles that doesn't see many cold starts. A major portion of oil contamination occurs during this warmup phase, particularly with short trip driving and cold weather.
The 35k/1 yr change is the same concept, but in that case, you are running 700 miles a week or 100 miles a day. Again, if you don't drive on the weekends,that's 140 miles a day and the same logic applies. In the 35k case, you'd be doing two Amsoil filter changes @ 12.5k and 25k miles and adding more makeup oil. These filter changes help control the solids/oxidation level, and the makeup oil replenishes some of the anti-wear and detergent additives.
Based on the testing I've done, I'd say 25,000 miles is achievable under ideal conditions of at least 75% highway driving - with an engine that is tuned up and running efficiently. I've used a 15k/1 year change interval for about the last ten years, and find that works well for mixed highway/city driving conditions.
People fixate on the 25k/35k recommendation,but the key thing is to change oil at least once a year and the Amsoil filters twice a year ....
The idea behind the 25k/1 yr change interval is actually quite sound.... If you drive 25k within a years time, thats 500 miles every week or approx 75 miles a day. If you don't do any driving on the weekends, that's 100 miles a day. This means you are doing lots of highway driving and/or you have a vehicles that doesn't see many cold starts. A major portion of oil contamination occurs during this warmup phase, particularly with short trip driving and cold weather.
The 35k/1 yr change is the same concept, but in that case, you are running 700 miles a week or 100 miles a day. Again, if you don't drive on the weekends,that's 140 miles a day and the same logic applies. In the 35k case, you'd be doing two Amsoil filter changes @ 12.5k and 25k miles and adding more makeup oil. These filter changes help control the solids/oxidation level, and the makeup oil replenishes some of the anti-wear and detergent additives.
Based on the testing I've done, I'd say 25,000 miles is achievable under ideal conditions of at least 75% highway driving - with an engine that is tuned up and running efficiently. I've used a 15k/1 year change interval for about the last ten years, and find that works well for mixed highway/city driving conditions.
People fixate on the 25k/35k recommendation,but the key thing is to change oil at least once a year and the Amsoil filters twice a year ....
In my view, Amsoil sells mental gymnastics rather than simply selling their product.
For instance, the Amsoil 1/2 year oil filter change is really about getting some make up oil into the vehicle and not about changing the oil filter per se. A gasoline engine in good condition and past the initial break in period is unlikely to have exceeded the useful life of an oil filter in six months. Even generally anal retentive Honda now puts tiny lawn tractor sized filters on their new cars and specs only changing the filter every other oil change.
Amsoil has a whole lot in common with Amway ... good quality products sold with religious zeal by a pyramid marketing organization with lots of BS wrapped around the product in order to justify the high prices.
Timken tests, never-been-paid-on warranties, etc. etc. are all used to add mental candy wrappers around what is really a commodity product.
If Mobil tried to sell Delvac-1 with those techniques they would be laughed off the stage.
I wonder how much time Amsoil's founders spent studying the methods of the tent revival preachers and travelling carnival miracle car wax salesmen?
John
For instance, the Amsoil 1/2 year oil filter change is really about getting some make up oil into the vehicle and not about changing the oil filter per se. A gasoline engine in good condition and past the initial break in period is unlikely to have exceeded the useful life of an oil filter in six months. Even generally anal retentive Honda now puts tiny lawn tractor sized filters on their new cars and specs only changing the filter every other oil change.
Amsoil has a whole lot in common with Amway ... good quality products sold with religious zeal by a pyramid marketing organization with lots of BS wrapped around the product in order to justify the high prices.
Timken tests, never-been-paid-on warranties, etc. etc. are all used to add mental candy wrappers around what is really a commodity product.
If Mobil tried to sell Delvac-1 with those techniques they would be laughed off the stage.
I wonder how much time Amsoil's founders spent studying the methods of the tent revival preachers and travelling carnival miracle car wax salesmen?
John
Amsoil has a marketing problem. They make good oils and use the extended drain as a sell, but they could do somethings to improve their image.
First, is to drop the ridiculous items like Vitamins and other garbage they sell and start focusing on the oils alone. Clean up your webpage and make it a bit more professional like Redline's. I can see where AJ doesn't want to abandone the dealers and go retail, but the dealer aspect IMO, is a double edge sword. On one hand you have dealers like Tooslick/Pablo who know their stuff, then you have thousands upon thousands of dealers that are just full of shiite. So many become skeptical but for those that follow this website and know about oils do come to the conclusion, I hope, that Amsoil does make some excellent oils.
Never met the guy but AJ sounds like an arogant @ss and that goofy picture inside the cover of the Action News letter should go as well.
[ April 12, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
First, is to drop the ridiculous items like Vitamins and other garbage they sell and start focusing on the oils alone. Clean up your webpage and make it a bit more professional like Redline's. I can see where AJ doesn't want to abandone the dealers and go retail, but the dealer aspect IMO, is a double edge sword. On one hand you have dealers like Tooslick/Pablo who know their stuff, then you have thousands upon thousands of dealers that are just full of shiite. So many become skeptical but for those that follow this website and know about oils do come to the conclusion, I hope, that Amsoil does make some excellent oils.
Never met the guy but AJ sounds like an arogant @ss and that goofy picture inside the cover of the Action News letter should go as well.
[ April 12, 2004, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
amsoil sells vitamins? sounds like amway.
youre right in the sence that they should clean up their image and stick to lubes and greases.
youre right in the sence that they should clean up their image and stick to lubes and greases.
Buster;
I've got to admit, I think their oils are good stuff (ran it awhile back)...but they've shot themselves in the foot with all the kooks they've signed up as dealers, dopey colorful comparison graphs (with scale starting points chosen to dramatically overemphasize performance differences), and way too much emphasis on how Amsoil makes people 'feel'.
The breakpoint for me was when a nutjob guy cornered me for 10 minutes, rabidly reciting product literature, extoling the virtues of the oiled foam air filter etc. This after I already told him that I was very familiar with and was using the product.
It's kind of like some big cult waiting for the spaceship to come pick them up (while sitting in their cars loaded with cases of Amsoil of course). The whole vitamin and fertilizer thing freaks me out a little too. Kind of like "We can all have a better way of life. OMMMMMMmmmm. We can get it online only from AL. OMMMMMmmmmm. He is our leader. OMMMMMmmmmm." For a couple bucks less a quart I'd just as soon get screwed by XOM...
I've got to admit, I think their oils are good stuff (ran it awhile back)...but they've shot themselves in the foot with all the kooks they've signed up as dealers, dopey colorful comparison graphs (with scale starting points chosen to dramatically overemphasize performance differences), and way too much emphasis on how Amsoil makes people 'feel'.
The breakpoint for me was when a nutjob guy cornered me for 10 minutes, rabidly reciting product literature, extoling the virtues of the oiled foam air filter etc. This after I already told him that I was very familiar with and was using the product.
It's kind of like some big cult waiting for the spaceship to come pick them up (while sitting in their cars loaded with cases of Amsoil of course). The whole vitamin and fertilizer thing freaks me out a little too. Kind of like "We can all have a better way of life. OMMMMMMmmmm. We can get it online only from AL. OMMMMMmmmmm. He is our leader. OMMMMMmmmmm." For a couple bucks less a quart I'd just as soon get screwed by XOM...
You guys are a little insulting...I'm not waiting for some spaceship, it's not even cultlike...sheesh... Redline website professional? OK whatever....
Pablo;
No offense to you at all! If you had been in the trenches with me when this guy showed up, we probably would have held him down and wrote "KOOK" on his forehead with a sharpie!
The fact that a solid guy like you is not making the big bucks on your Amsoil business (as you told us yourself) is a good sign that their marketing plan is jacked up!
No offense to you at all! If you had been in the trenches with me when this guy showed up, we probably would have held him down and wrote "KOOK" on his forehead with a sharpie!
The fact that a solid guy like you is not making the big bucks on your Amsoil business (as you told us yourself) is a good sign that their marketing plan is jacked up!
When that can was in use, Amsoil had plenty of di-basic esters in it - they have long since been replaced by PAO's.quote:
Originally posted by Mike:
Its funny that so many have negative things to say about a product they don't or won't use. I suppose the millions of Amsoil users dating back to 1973 are just crazy. The very first can of Amsoil I ever had said "25,000 miles or 1 Year". I did that and never had any engine related problems in any vehicle. Yet people who don't have the experience in exteneded drains offer opinions based on what they read or interperate. 25,000 miles or 1 yr OCI are nothing new. Here is a image of the first oil cans from 1973. While the people in this arguement have changed, the rhetoric has not.
Right and they followed Mobil's approach which has always been PAO. Now the question I have is why? Cost is my guess although if Amsoil formulates an oil like S2k that is $8.35qt, they could have easily used a POE basestock instead or more of it I should say. But they didn't. Amsoil claims they don't agree with Redline's chemistry.....
[ April 12, 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: buster ]
quote:
But, who wants to determine what caused the damage. If your engine breaks during the warranty period you just want it fixed. You don't want to be in the middle of a blame game.
Amsoil's warranty says,
"THE WARRANTY MAY NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER: 8. Failure of equipment due to a pre-existing condition that is unrelated to the use of AMSOIL."
"AMSOIL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REJECT A WARRANTY CLAIM FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS: 9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect."
Read the rest of http://www.amsoil.com/warranty.htm it puts the engine owner in a position of supplying 8 oz. oil samples, notifying Amsoil within 30 days, the batch number from the quart oil bottle you threw away 11 months ago, the damaged parts, and other requirements...and all you want is your engine fixed.
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I really agree with what Ken2 says in his reply for this post. Now, understand, I have used Amsoil products. And I have a great deal of respect for Amsoil motor oil. I think it is very fine quality motor oil.
But if there is some sort of problem, and a person is facing warranty questions, and you have to jump through too many hoops, then I would rather use a motor oil that meets API requirements. Is it correct, for example, that you have to have the batch numbers off the quarts of Amsoil oil? In addition to all the other stuff he mentions.
Now understand, again, I have high respect for Amsoil. But if warranty claims are too tough to meet, you might as well not have a warranty at all.
But, who wants to determine what caused the damage. If your engine breaks during the warranty period you just want it fixed. You don't want to be in the middle of a blame game.
Amsoil's warranty says,
"THE WARRANTY MAY NOT BE EXTENDED TO COVER: 8. Failure of equipment due to a pre-existing condition that is unrelated to the use of AMSOIL."
"AMSOIL RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REJECT A WARRANTY CLAIM FOR ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS: 9. Failure was the result of an OEM defect."
Read the rest of http://www.amsoil.com/warranty.htm it puts the engine owner in a position of supplying 8 oz. oil samples, notifying Amsoil within 30 days, the batch number from the quart oil bottle you threw away 11 months ago, the damaged parts, and other requirements...and all you want is your engine fixed.
_____________________________________________________________
I really agree with what Ken2 says in his reply for this post. Now, understand, I have used Amsoil products. And I have a great deal of respect for Amsoil motor oil. I think it is very fine quality motor oil.
But if there is some sort of problem, and a person is facing warranty questions, and you have to jump through too many hoops, then I would rather use a motor oil that meets API requirements. Is it correct, for example, that you have to have the batch numbers off the quarts of Amsoil oil? In addition to all the other stuff he mentions.
Now understand, again, I have high respect for Amsoil. But if warranty claims are too tough to meet, you might as well not have a warranty at all.
A few years ago I caught Amsoil claiming to meet a mil spec with an a oil that couldn't have possibly met the spec because it was the wrong viscosity. That made me wonder if they even bother to read the specs they claim to meet.
If Mercedes says Amsoil meets Merc. 229.4, then that would give Amsoil a bit more credibility. I doubt that will ever happen. It costs Amsoil far less to just claim it meets various specs than it does to get approved by the organizations that control the specs.
Amsoil could be the best oil in the world, but there are plenty of other good oils that don't have the stigma of Amsoil's marketing scheme atttached to them.
Lemme see, an oil company will take your word that your engine blew because you said it's your oil's fault and just give you a new engine. Sorry to disappoint, fellas.
OK Amsoil does post some whacked crap on the website. It infuriates me when it takes me three times telling them and they never clean the stuff up (they don't even personally acknowledge me right away)....but as far as I can tell the web guys rarely if ever talk to the compliance or R & D guys.
[ April 12, 2004, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
Amsoil meets API requirements. Not sure why you missed that. All formulations licensed? No, just like Redline. Amsoil does NOT want the formula under API control because their money making scheme stinks.
Uhh...dude....uh....please tell us more. Which organizations "approve" these oils? It really doesn't work this way. Again sorry to disappoint.
OK Amsoil does post some whacked crap on the website. It infuriates me when it takes me three times telling them and they never clean the stuff up (they don't even personally acknowledge me right away)....but as far as I can tell the web guys rarely if ever talk to the compliance or R & D guys.
[ April 12, 2004, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: Pablo ]
Cheese....I'm already being accused of rethoric and crap! I have never put down the product, just the claims on Amsoil's marketing department.
Amsoil's marketing is very smart...they tell you to run the oil for 35k miles or one year.....the key to the deception lies in the "one year" part. It is almost impossible for someone to drive 35k miles in one year......so Amsoil asks you to change the oil yearly. WHY, WHY, WHY?
We have proven that oil in an engine does not degrade that fast, even after numerous starts and short trips......and I'm referring to a vehicle that is rarely driven. Here is what I'm referring to. That vehicle was driven for only 1935 miles and was started and driven occasionally over a period of 22 months and the TBN still looked awesome.....and this is "substandard" Mobil 1 SS oil. So realistically, Amsoil is saying that:
-You more than likely will never put 35k miles in one year
-You should change your oil annually, whether it has 2k or 10k miles. So, where are the savings here??
-Amsoil is betting that "realistically", most driver will drive a max of say 15-20k miles a year.....and they still ask you that you change the filter every 12k miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.....this is intended of course to boost the oil's TBN and make it last the more realistic 15-20k miles.
So, in my opinion, Amsoil knows their oil will never last 35k miles on just a filter change, so they give themselves a backdoor with confusing language and limitations in order for their oil to really survive long drains. They can spin it all they want, but they are not convincing me.....and apparently, not a whole lot of other people.
In any case, I think those Amsoil advocates should put their money where their mouth is. Go ahead and install fresh Amsoil and a new filter.......run it for 17.5k miles and change the filter and top off......run it for another 17.5k miles.......I will pay for analysis at the half way point and the end of the test. Should the oil have 0.000001 TBN, then I will be a believer. Simple enough!?!?!
I'm done with this topic!
On another topic......just bought 5082 shares of MOBL.....It's up 3 cents since opening
Go Mobile, go!!!
[ April 12, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
Amsoil's marketing is very smart...they tell you to run the oil for 35k miles or one year.....the key to the deception lies in the "one year" part. It is almost impossible for someone to drive 35k miles in one year......so Amsoil asks you to change the oil yearly. WHY, WHY, WHY?
We have proven that oil in an engine does not degrade that fast, even after numerous starts and short trips......and I'm referring to a vehicle that is rarely driven. Here is what I'm referring to. That vehicle was driven for only 1935 miles and was started and driven occasionally over a period of 22 months and the TBN still looked awesome.....and this is "substandard" Mobil 1 SS oil. So realistically, Amsoil is saying that:
-You more than likely will never put 35k miles in one year
-You should change your oil annually, whether it has 2k or 10k miles. So, where are the savings here??
-Amsoil is betting that "realistically", most driver will drive a max of say 15-20k miles a year.....and they still ask you that you change the filter every 12k miles or 6 months, whichever comes first.....this is intended of course to boost the oil's TBN and make it last the more realistic 15-20k miles.
So, in my opinion, Amsoil knows their oil will never last 35k miles on just a filter change, so they give themselves a backdoor with confusing language and limitations in order for their oil to really survive long drains. They can spin it all they want, but they are not convincing me.....and apparently, not a whole lot of other people.
In any case, I think those Amsoil advocates should put their money where their mouth is. Go ahead and install fresh Amsoil and a new filter.......run it for 17.5k miles and change the filter and top off......run it for another 17.5k miles.......I will pay for analysis at the half way point and the end of the test. Should the oil have 0.000001 TBN, then I will be a believer. Simple enough!?!?!
I'm done with this topic!
On another topic......just bought 5082 shares of MOBL.....It's up 3 cents since opening
Go Mobile, go!!!
[ April 12, 2004, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Last_Z ]
XOM is up .69 today.
5082 shares....wow....
OH you mean MOBL
PS I can't/won't drive 35K in one year.
So the deal is off
5082 shares....wow....
OH you mean MOBL
PS I can't/won't drive 35K in one year.
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