Sobering News for the Volt - Production Shutdown

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I doubt that Escape Hybrid battery costs $10,000. The prices have been falling every year.


+1... Sounds like misinformation coupled with an agenda.

Are hybrids expensive? yes.

Are some ridiculously so (highlander hybrid, Im looking at you)? yes.

Will some give good payback in the end? Yes, especially as gas hits $5-8.

Is there a better option in the end? Sure, if people come to recognize that a 15 second 0-60 and about 130 hp is all you ever need...



No agenda. Like I stated before I agree with the concept of making more efficient vehicles. The post below yours is correct. $7500 or so (closer to $8500 from the dealer) just for the battery, not including the installation and disposal fees. She also got this quote from a dealership since they told her it "needed" to be done at the dealership.

I agree with your statement about what people need. Unless you need to tow something you don't need more than 130 hp or a 4 cylinder. You see people around here driving huge SUVs with only one person in them.

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I doubt that Escape Hybrid battery costs $10,000. The prices have been falling every year.


+1... Sounds like misinformation coupled with an agenda.

Are hybrids expensive? yes.

Are some ridiculously so (highlander hybrid, Im looking at you)? yes.

Will some give good payback in the end? Yes, especially as gas hits $5-8.

Is there a better option in the end? Sure, if people come to recognize that a 15 second 0-60 and about 130 hp is all you ever need...



No agenda. Like I stated before I agree with the concept of making more efficient vehicles. The post below yours is correct. $7500 or so (closer to $8500 from the dealer) just for the battery, not including the installation and disposal fees. She also got this quote from a dealership since they told her it "needed" to be done at the dealership.

I agree with your statement about what people need. Unless you need to tow something you don't need more than 130 hp or a 4 cylinder. You see people around here driving huge SUVs with only one person in them.



I can tell you the battery cost $2000 for Prius and they almost never fail and they are warrantied to 150,000 miles anyway.

I get 50-55 MPG in CITY driving and 0-60 time is at the 10 seconds range.

The hybrid cars bashing here on BITOG is ridiculous.

But I do admit some brands are more reliable than others hybrid-wise and the concept of hybrid SUVs is one big mistake.

 

[jeepman3071]

Originally Posted By: friendly_jacek

I can tell you the battery cost $2000 for Prius and they almost never fail and they are warrantied to 150,000 miles anyway.

I get 50-55 MPG in CITY driving and 0-60 time is at the 10 seconds range.

The hybrid cars bashing here on BITOG is ridiculous.

But I do admit some brands are more reliable than others hybrid-wise and the concept of hybrid SUVs is one big mistake.


I'm not bashing hybrid vehicles, although I do agree hybrid SUVs are a big mistake. The issue I have is that the government makes them more expensive or doesn't give any incentives to buy one.

Example: Say you are looking to buy a new economical car as reliable transportation to work. The hybrid is more expensive vs. the regular version. You are just looking for a car with better mpg than your old clunker, and don't feel like paying the higher price tag for the hybrid so you go with the regular version.

When some people buy cars, they only plan on having it for a certain amount of time. The gas savings on the hybrid vs. the regular model isn't worth it to them for the more expensive initial price tag. I keep my vehicles forever and run them into the ground, so it would be worth it to me, some people just don't plan very far ahead these days.

If I were buying a new car and the hybrid was the same price as the regular version, or had some incentive to buy it, then of course I would pick the hybrid.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
I'm not bashing hybrid vehicles, although I do agree hybrid SUVs are a big mistake. The issue I have is that the government makes them more expensive or doesn't give any incentives to buy one.

If I were buying a new car and the hybrid was the same price as the regular version, or had some incentive to buy it, then of course I would pick the hybrid.


Please, please tell me you're not serious.

But since I don't have much hope that you are, let me tell you something, government subsidized hybrids for a long time and now they focused their attention to EVs, making them look LESS expensive than they really are.
For all new technologies there is something called ROI and it's up to the customer do decide whether the ROI period is long enough or not for them. You obviously want instant gratification by having tax payers foot the bill just because you don't like the prices of hybrids.

 

[mpvue]

hybrid SUV's are expensive when bought new. like the much-maligned highlander. but they are priced reasonably used.
and, while the hwy mpg is only slightly better (25 vs 28) the local mpg is MUCH better (18 vs 28)
my Dad picked up a used (2006 model) highlander hybrid for pretty cheap, I don't recall exactly how much, but the mpg is real. we loaded it up w/ a rooftop box and went to LA w/ it, getting at least 26mpg the whole trip.
another factor about this truck is the passing power. the electric assist motors kick in and it's like turbo boost, but without the lag. lots of fun to drive, seriously.

 

[tig1]

I saw a Volt this morning. Now I know there is at least one in Illinois.

 

[GMBoy]

I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.

 

[rjundi]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?



+1

A Highlander hybrid achieves 28MPG city and same highway and seats 7 and has AWD. It does 11MPG better than its equivalent AWD model but the premium($7k+) is a bit steep.

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.


A family that needs an SUV that wants to "save on gas and get more MPG and save $$" would be exceedingly stupid to buy the hybrid version of their SUV of choice. If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace).

Lots of idiots replace their gas cars with hybrids to "save gas and $$"...what idiots. Sometimes one can save $$ doing this, but mostly they end up spending a lot more $$ on the total operational cost of ownership.

So no, hybrid SUV's are only for idiots. Same for gas Camry vs. hybrid Camry, and same for gas vs hybrid Fusion, and many, many more combinations.

 

[exranger06]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace) .

Considering 99% of the time the battery easily lasts the life of the vehicle, I'd say battery replacement cost is a moot point.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.


A family that needs an SUV that wants to "save on gas and get more MPG and save $$" would be exceedingly stupid to buy the hybrid version of their SUV of choice. If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace).

Lots of idiots replace their gas cars with hybrids to "save gas and $$"...what idiots. Sometimes one can save $$ doing this, but mostly they end up spending a lot more $$ on the total operational cost of ownership.

So no, hybrid SUV's are only for idiots. Same for gas Camry vs. hybrid Camry, and same for gas vs hybrid Fusion, and many, many more combinations.



This is a big overgeneralization to say it mildly. Hybrids do make sense in certain situations and if you're buying a new car anyway, they can make sense. This is exactly the same as paying premium for a diesel version. If you just flipped your 3-5 year old SUV or a mid-size sedan for a Hybrid, then of course you're loosing money. But if you have a 15 year old beater that needs replacing, hybrids can make financial sense.

The reason I'm not a fan of hybrids and EVs is that the media made them look like this is the only way forward and that switching to a hybrid or EV makes financial sense for most situations, which isn't the case.

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: ryansride2017
Volt Shutdown

What a disappointment for such a long-anticipated vehicle. With those sales rates, you have to wonder why production would ever resume.


$35k for a generic looking Chevy? Most probably NOT, and the people have voted with their wallets.

You simply cannot expect to have good sales of such a car in a depressed economy.

 

[Smokescreen]

I don't understand why the two most inexpensive options are not pursued and they have proven results:

1) The first is the easiest..Aerodynamics. You could almost double any cars fuel economy by changing its shape.

2) Second, perfect the gasoline engine. They are making small strides all the time...gradually. 'If' they put a man on the moon or make a rail gun...why not use a fraction of that brain power to greatly improve on the gasoline engine?

Until you exhaust all the possibilities of improving on existing technologies before you...you aren't really serious.

 

[cchase]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.


A family that needs an SUV that wants to "save on gas and get more MPG and save $$" would be exceedingly stupid to buy the hybrid version of their SUV of choice. If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace).

Lots of idiots replace their gas cars with hybrids to "save gas and $$"...what idiots. Sometimes one can save $$ doing this, but mostly they end up spending a lot more $$ on the total operational cost of ownership.

So no, hybrid SUV's are only for idiots. Same for gas Camry vs. hybrid Camry, and same for gas vs hybrid Fusion, and many, many more combinations.



If the non-hybrid SUV gets 15 mpg and the hybrid version gets 22 mpg, that sounds like it will save 33% on fuel costs. Given a 5-7k premium for vehicles, it sounds to me like the break-even point won't be too far down the road if you drive a lot. My calculations say that with 20k miles driven per year, it may be in less than 4 years.

It sounds like even by your logic, hybrid SUV's make a lot of sense.

 

[3311]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: lovcom
If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace) .

Considering 99% of the time the battery easily lasts the life of the vehicle, I'd say battery replacement cost is a moot point.
How can you say this? Are 99% of hybrids now in the junk yard?

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
Originally Posted By: lovcom
If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace) .

Considering 99% of the time the battery easily lasts the life of the vehicle, I'd say battery replacement cost is a moot point.


But even if the battery does last "forever" or cost $50, buying a hybred SUV over it's gas version is STILL NOT COST EFFECTIVE. Guys that buy hybrid SUV's feel bette about it by lying to themselves: "Hunny, no worries...it saves $$ on gas, baby"...completly ignoring the total cost of ownership.

 

[lovcom]

Originally Posted By: cchase
Originally Posted By: lovcom
Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.


A family that needs an SUV that wants to "save on gas and get more MPG and save $$" would be exceedingly stupid to buy the hybrid version of their SUV of choice. If you care to do the "complete cost of ownership" calculations, you too will see that buying a hybrid SUV would cost tons more $$ over a gas only version. This is because the hybrid SUV's cost a LOT more then their gas only versions, the hybrid batteries are very expensive too (to replace).

Lots of idiots replace their gas cars with hybrids to "save gas and $$"...what idiots. Sometimes one can save $$ doing this, but mostly they end up spending a lot more $$ on the total operational cost of ownership.

So no, hybrid SUV's are only for idiots. Same for gas Camry vs. hybrid Camry, and same for gas vs hybrid Fusion, and many, many more combinations.



If the non-hybrid SUV gets 15 mpg and the hybrid version gets 22 mpg, that sounds like it will save 33% on fuel costs. Given a 5-7k premium for vehicles, it sounds to me like the break-even point won't be too far down the road if you drive a lot. My calculations say that with 20k miles driven per year, it may be in less than 4 years.

It sounds like even by your logic, hybrid SUV's make a lot of sense.


You conveniently FORGOT the Cost of the REPLACEMENT Battery...so much for your idea ;-) ...not to mention that the hybrid version will lose more depreciated dollars.

Oh, and one more thing....your calculations don't reflect the constant increase in gas prices into the future...lets say gas goes up an average of 50 cents a year, and then your 4 years break even turns into much more...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: lovcom
But even if the battery does last "forever" or cost $50, buying a hybred SUV over it's gas version is STILL NOT COST EFFECTIVE. Guys that buy hybrid SUV's feel bette about it by lying to themselves: "Hunny, no worries...it saves $$ on gas, baby"...completly ignoring the total cost of ownership.


I doubt that less than 5% of new car buyers do a total cost of ownership in an honest manner.

If they did, and were honest, they'd be buying used off the other 95% of new car buyers who bought it because that's what they wanted to do/buy/drive/be seen in/talk about/show off...

 

[Landrew]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: lovcom
But even if the battery does last "forever" or cost $50, buying a hybred SUV over it's gas version is STILL NOT COST EFFECTIVE. Guys that buy hybrid SUV's feel bette about it by lying to themselves: "Hunny, no worries...it saves $$ on gas, baby"...completly ignoring the total cost of ownership.


I doubt that less than 5% of new car buyers do a total cost of ownership in an honest manner.

If they did, and were honest, they'd be buying used off the other 95% of new car buyers who bought it because that's what they wanted to do/buy/drive/be seen in/talk about/show off...


So true. I love buying used. I honestly want to thank all the "depreciators" out there for keeping their brand new car in nice shape for me while they cut me a huge break. It almost feels like cheating the system....... I do the TCO math before I spend my money. Eating huge depreciation is worse than a kick in the junk........



I have a good friend who has a lot of money, but who is also very generous. When he is done with an item he sells it to friends very cheap and it is usually in excellent condition. Sometimes when he buys something new I get excited because in a few years I have a chance to pick up a crazy deal or own something I normally would not have....
He takes the hit on buying new with slight remorse. I joked with him that with the last 3 cars he has bought the depreciation on all of them added up is more than all my vehicles worth combined. BTW I can't afford his used cars as they are all high end cars with more than 480hp stock.......dirty bugger........

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: GMBoy
I have to ask why some here feel that Hybrid SUV's are a bad idea?

There are families out there who's needs aren't met with a Prius so why shouldn't they be afforded some additional MPG's too?

A Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade Hybrid will give you 20-23 MPG in the City and 20-21 Highway. I have put over 8,000 miles on one and my average (according to DIC) is 21.6. This is more highway miles than city (hybrids do better in city than highway) and I don't exactly drive "easy", lol. This is also BETTER than what I get in my CTS, which is 18.9.



A bit scarier is the notion that someone else is going to decide for me what I should buy.

NO ONE should ever support taking away choices. The market should decide. The Mfgr does not simply make a vehicle and see if it sells. They do tons of research.

or in the case of EV's they apply for some borrowed money!