That would be my take as well so the questions of unintended consequences....I don't get it vs. any other oil with the same approvals.
So what is the deal with HPL Oil?
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OVERKILL
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Yup, that's all in the context of KEEPING things clean. Even the Sequence VG reference, that test is about PREVENTING deposits:
I know, it's misleading, as their use of "Cleansing" and other buzzwords makes it sound like it's Mr. Clean for your engine, but when you actually carefully read their material, none of it makes reference to cleaning-up pre-existing deposits.
Yes, it does
OVERKILL
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I'd assume so, but that's just an educated guess.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
It's not about wear, it's about oil consumption, compression...etc. The most torturous location for oil in the engine is the ring land area where the volume of oil is low, temperatures are extremely high and the flow-through rate is also extremely low. This is the most common location for deposit build-up, which inhibits flow back to the pan, increases oil consumption and eventually leads to reduced compression, increased blow-by, which is a cascading failure of sorts as more blow-by contaminants degrades the oil more rapidly, resulting in an oil that's already compromised ending up in that same area, more likely to lay down even more deposits.
So, if you have two oils that provide the same level of wear control but one keeps the ring lands free and clear and the other doesn't, run in two identical engines, one engine is going to be in significantly better health after a while than the other. How long that takes of course depends on the rate of deposit formation, design...etc.
No it says, No other motor oil cleans your engine better**.
Based on 100,000 Km fleet trial
**Based on Sequence VG sludge test results using OW-40
Click on the link, or shall i take a pic from the text?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
I know what it says. Follow along with me here.
1. What are they basing it on? Sequence VG (the single * point is not applicable to this claim)
2. What is Sequence VG? It's the oil's ability prevent sludge formation under conditions engineered to produce sludge. I literally provided you with a screenshot of the testing protocol there, it's all there for you to read.
Basically, they are claiming that the oil "cleans" the sludge in that test, by preventing it from forming, but it's not removing EXISTING sludge, varnish or deposits, it's simply preventing them from forming in the test engine under the test conditions. It's extremely poor and misleading verbiage.
Also of note, Sequence VG is a standard test sequence (now replaced by VH) that all oils have to pass, so this isn't some high bar that only Shell is attaining.
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yes i know that, also, how do you know its not removing existing sludge?
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Because if it did, they'd advertise it like Mobil does/did
They are careful not to advertise that, and I think @The Critic has likely hit on why that is.Cleaning requires different chemistry than keeping things clean. You can have a pretty neutral base oil blend and a healthy detergent package and keep things very clean (which is what Shell is claiming). On the other hand, to actually remove existing deposits you need to use:
- Solvent (obviously not going to work as part of a full formulated engine oil)
- Polar additive/base (this is what HPL uses, AutoRX...etc)
Bases capable of removing existing deposits are AN's and esters, both of which are expensive. AN's have the added challenge of having very low VI's, which means you need to blend them with PAO typically to get a 0W-xx Winter grade. Mobil's original "Tri-Syn" formula was PAO + esters and AN's. When they introduced Group III, they stepped away from that single approach and started mixing it up based on cost and performance targets, so you'd get oils like M1 EP 0W-20 with a majority PAO base and then probably just a splash of ester to meet the solvency, while its sister product in 5W-20 would be totally Group III with no PAO and likely little to no AN or ester content.
Their 0W-40, when it was claimed to clean (it doesn't claim that anymore from what I've seen) likely had either AN's, esters, or both in it.
As @The Critic noted, introducing cleaning creates potential for serious problems like plugging up filters because Joe Average isn't going to be short-changing the filter in anticipation of rapid loading due to cleaning taking place. Also, the detergent and dispersant package has limited holding capacity and an oil that's cleaning is going to hit that threshold much quicker than one that isn't. Ergo, there is risk associated with making an oil capable of removing existing deposits.
Concerned? Not at all but BITOG'ers are generally obsessive compulsive over something and occupy that segment called automotive enthusiasts.
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For my part, I'm concerned about "hemi tick". Before you roll your eyes at me, hear me out. There are several different theories as to what causes it, one of them is that varnish/deposits plug up the needle bearings in the lifters, they stop rolling and the lifter starts to hit the lobe instead of roll over it.
An oil that cleans like HPL would definitely help in this area. If the tick is just individual defective lifters, oh well, the rest of the oil is still at the top of the class and I don't really lose anything except a bit of extra cash (which given the cost of the truck is a drop in the bucket).
Makes perfect sense if you're working with an engine with a propensity to have an issue.
Winner winner chicken dinner....
Especially as the loads and performance level increase.
Performance Car, high perf Suv, Truck, Towing with a Truck, Marine.
Keeping expensive equipment running longer while still being tight pays off.
Cleaner is always better.
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It's been mentioned on here in numerous places that HPL actually is the fleet oil for one of the largest government fleets in the world, and routinely racks up ~180+ MILLION fleet miles per year (not even touching all the privately-owned vehicles using HPL!) that is closely watched and monitored, all with our money of course, so no expense is spared on oil or testing. Considering one of the larger groups of engines in this fleet is the 3.5 EcoBoost and that there are no issues with phaser failures or ticking, nor timing chain replacements from stretching, this assuages any fears I have about the veracity of HPL's performance claims.
Based on this actual data, it is very safe to say that HPL knows what they are doing with at least the same safety level as any of the oil brands that are considered "top-shelf" for any of the commodity-level oils (WM or auto parts chain level). You're absolutely correct that for someone who never keeps a stock vehicle for more than ~3 years may not get a cost reduction by using HPL; but I don't think that's HPLs target market anyways. Their entire product line is formulated for people who keep machinery for a long time and understand the true cost of ownership, including maintenance AND repairs, and that better oils will deliver longer machinery life and lower overall costs during ownership.
So, if you don't "think" there's a benefit to you, you're 100% correct. Simply buy your shelf-stock oil and everybody's still happy. You'll never even realize what you're missing since your mind was already made up!
Sure, you did a little bit of research on Shell's marketing, but you didn't dig into the details, did you? Sequence VG is only designed to mimic results on pre-1996 engines, with an API SL rating.
https://www.astm.org/d6593-18e01.htmlASTM said:
How many pre-1996 cars are still on the road in stop-and go driving? How many of those were ever rated for 0w40? None! And therefore, how many pre-1996 cars are likely to have owners TODAY using a top-of-the-line Shell Helix Ultra 0w40 in their 26+ year old vehicles? Also again, likely so incredibly close to zero that it effectively nullifies the entire Shell sales pitch:
Shell said:
TL;DR: There's still zero printed evidence from Shell that their oils will clean up today's engines effectively, even to the level of Mobil's claims.
It won't be anytime during our lifetimes, that's for sure. USA alone currently has 1.2 TW TOTAL electrical generation and over 60% of that is still natural gas & coal. Battery electricity usage determined by the IEA is there, ahem, extremely aggressive at best. (NZE = net zero economy)
https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/a...050-ARoadmapfortheGlobalEnergySector_CORR.pdf
Here's a sanity check for all the people who are swayed by the current propaganda: the real data below say that fossil fuels ain't going anywhere, anytime soon. They're just going to be made extremely expensive to discourage their use.
https://www.worldenergydata.org/world-electricity-generation/
an un named Government fleet drives 180 million fleet miles a year?( FWIW most guvmint agencies use a low bid approach but lets leave that out of the mix) and uses a product promoted almost exclusively on this forum? Lets do the math, that means if the average Government fleet vehicle was driven 50k a year ( 1000 miles a week for those of you from Rio Linda 
) somewhere there with a 3600 vehicle government fleet is using this high priced specialty stuff, if I did the math correctly.
I wonder which Government fleet it is. ?
) somewhere there with a 3600 vehicle government fleet is using this high priced specialty stuff, if I did the math correctly.I wonder which Government fleet it is. ?
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It's not 3,600 vehicles, more like 10,000 vehicles, and some of them idle as much 8-12 hours a day in 100+°F heat. Many of those engines have 400k+ miles and still go 15-20k mile intervals with great results.
oh no!... Overkill explained it really well for me. You don't need to repeat it. Did put helpful at Overkill last comment.
my comment was sarcastic
