Sludge rumors

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It seems Pennzoil and Mobil put the most into marketing. Valvoline doesn't seem to get much love, yet most say it's a good oil. How does it Stack Up
To mobil and Pennzoil, is the real question. Are they as good as they say, or is it all marketing
 
As a longtime engine re builder here ive torn apart thousands of engines here. back the 1960s to 1975 era before unleaded fuel, yes Pennzoil did have sludge problems with its formulations in engines. long gone now. QS almost as bad, Castrol was just different then, not bad, but did leave a weird "Orange tint on everything, even after a hot tank cleaning cycle, never knew why? ALL Oils today are great, much better in cleaning and lubricating, unleaded fuels truly help keep engines insides clean, and yes Valvoline oils are very good in keeping engines insides clean. Sodium add-pack?
 
ShotGun429 I really respect your experience and firsthand knowledge here in regards to this. Someone who has actually done a whole lot of work and been there seen that means a lot.
I can just about guruantee this Champion typing this had sludge in my first cars I owned. I didn't take care of my cars like I should have back then. But, I learned and started taking care of my cars much better.
 
I was in the RCAF in France in the mid 60's. I had a '62 Plymouth slant 6. It too sludged up even though most drives were 12 miles to work and a lot of sightseeing. It was at op. temp. every trip. In those days we used a Summer thermostat 160* F. 180*F in Winter. Probably not hot enough. Mobil Special 10w-30 all year.
Gas was 4 1/4 cents/ litre.
 
Sludge was a problem back in the good old days of iffy VIIs used to blend grades with a wide spread, like 10W-40.
This hasn't been a factor in the past thirty years or more with any brand of oil.
Run the recommended grade with the recommended certs for the recommended OCIs of any brand and sludge will be no more than an unfounded rumor.
Valvoline API PCMOs do use an entirely different add pack from that of any other name brand oil these days. This sodium based add pack seems to work just fine in reducing wear and preventing deposit buildup.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
Sludge was a problem back in the good old days of iffy VIIs used to blend grades with a wide spread, like 10W-40.
This hasn't been a factor in the past thirty years or more with any brand of oil. ...
That might be true in general, but generalizations have exceptions. It was a factor in the infamously sludge-prone Toyota V6s less than 20 years ago, when the recommended viscosity was probably 5W-30 or 5W-20. It was a factor in my Mazda as recently as about 2002, with 10W-40. Valvoline (or store-brand oils believed to have been made by Valvoline) was not among the brands that made sludge in the Mazda.
 
No matter what brand of oil you use there will be X person who says that brand causes sludge, the reality is the grand majority of modern oils on the shelves will NOT cause sludge when changed at the appropriate intervals.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I'm convinced it's heat related. Gas engines that run in cold air like tractors plowing in cold frosty conditions (say Cletrac) get sludge under the valve covers. Same engine running hard in summer, no issue. Same with the gas farm trucks. To me, it's a form of condensation on cooler surfaces.

I've had sludge in marine engines that run a 160*F thermostat and direct raw water cooling. Same engine, same oil with heat exchanger running over 180*F, no issues.

I guess Mobil1 was the most impervious to this... But Pennz Ultra has to be a step up with GTL. And now Rotella T6 10W-30 is GLT based, so we'll see ...



Dispersancy of an oil drops with temperatures, so the sludge buildup will definitely start in the cooler areas. Chack out the Ailine point for the different base oils. That's the temperature point where equal amounts of oil and aniline mixed seperate again. There's quite a difference at the temperature this happens between base stocks, with group III and IV being worst; Group I clearly better and Group 5 king by a large margin. Aniline is a higly polar compound, and stays better solubised in high polarity oils. Now according from what I picked up from SonOfJoe, the VII is a majour contributor to the loading of the engine and the following deposits. When those break down they formpolar compounds aswell.

GTL would likely have an aniline point very near to PAO, so while the inherent high VI means less VII needed, the ashless dispersants will still need to be high and those are prone to evaporation. So while you might not have issues in summer, the higher temperatures the oil runs at as a whole probably degrades the oil enough for the issue to arise when it's cooler.
 
This thread brings back a memory from childhood-- sometime in the early 90's I remember my dad getting upset at my mom for buying Quaker State oil. We had a 1983 Dodge Aries that was a leaker, it needed semi-regular top-ups. He was upset to the point of yelling and taking it back to the store to get a different brand, all over the supposed sludge issues with Quaker State oil.

Funny thing is, I went to visit him over Thanksgiving and guess what oil was in the garage? Quaker State!
 
Mobil 1 is the best known synthetic oil everywhere as far as i know i remember it when i was a kid we had a big metal sign up in the shop that said Mobil 1.. I never found out where that sign went but i remember it in the 70's
 
Originally Posted By: wiswind
Supposedly, there was an issue with QS.....either late 60's or early 70's.
That issue was resolved LONG ago and was short lived.
I would not worry about QS now.....as oil chemistry is MUCH different now anyhow (Again, the issue was resolved back then).


Yes in the mid-70s there were issues with QS 10W40. One of the reasons GM discouraged using that vis grade later on. But as you say, most BITOGs weren't even born then.
 
Originally Posted By: nascarnation
Originally Posted By: wiswind
Supposedly, there was an issue with QS.....either late 60's or early 70's.
That issue was resolved LONG ago and was short lived.
I would not worry about QS now.....as oil chemistry is MUCH different now anyhow (Again, the issue was resolved back then).


Yes in the mid-70s there were issues with QS 10W40. One of the reasons GM discouraged using that vis grade later on. But as you say, most BITOGs weren't even born then.


I've been running QS 10w40 from 1973 in my Datsun for 4 years on the same oil change. No sludge. No issues.
 
My Father is retired from Valvoline oil. I asked him about these "Rumors" he said back in the early 70's as he recalls Quaker state had a real problem with their oil and had to reformulate it. He said for about 6 months or so they canned the Valvoline oil in QS cans till they got it right? I do know they canned a lot of oil for a lot of people. He use to bring home cans with wal-mart or K-mart lids and Valvoline can bodies or vise versa. They would also make banks with the cans. All was the same oil just the canning machine would have a different number of cans than lids so you would get screwed up cans.

My fathers job was he made undercoating. Which back in the 70s was a big deal especially in PA were we lived. Some of you old timers will know what I am talking about. There was huge loyalty wars over Rustolem vs Zebart ect. My dad would laugh because he made it all. The only difference was the dies added. They put in in those company cans right there in the factory. LOL

I would love to have some of those screwed up cans of oil now. Probably big a nice penny from people who like that stuff. My best friends grand father worked with my dad and we were discussing those cans one day. He is a body man now and laughed and said we might have put some of the most expensive oil in our cars as kids cause we used the screwed up cans. LOL
 
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One reason old pushrod engines like the Slant 6 sludged up was the useless breathing systems - road tubes, or just plumbed into the aircleaner body. BMC B blocks and Hillman Hunter engines were also bad for filling the rocker cover with thick yellow sludge. A proper PVC system is needed to stop it. I converted one of my Austin 1800 Landcrabs to a modern PVC, and the rocker cover went from sludge to clean straight away. I don't like engines to swallow their own waste products, but it certainly keeps them clean inside.
 
Originally Posted By: Artjr
My Father is retired from Valvoline oil. I asked him about these "Rumors" he said back in the early 70's as he recalls Quaker state had a real problem with their oil and had to reformulate it. He said for about 6 months or so they canned the Valvoline oil in QS cans till they got it right? I do know they canned a lot of oil for a lot of people. He use to bring home cans with wal-mart or K-mart lids and Valvoline can bodies or vise versa. They would also make banks with the cans. All was the same oil just the canning machine would have a different number of cans than lids so you would get screwed up cans.

My fathers job was he made undercoating. Which back in the 70s was a big deal especially in PA were we lived. Some of you old timers will know what I am talking about. There was huge loyalty wars over Rustolem vs Zebart ect. My dad would laugh because he made it all. The only difference was the dies added. They put in in those company cans right there in the factory. LOL

I would love to have some of those screwed up cans of oil now. Probably big a nice penny from people who like that stuff. My best friends grand father worked with my dad and we were discussing those cans one day. He is a body man now and laughed and said we might have put some of the most expensive oil in our cars as kids cause we used the screwed up cans. LOL


Great story.

I did some work for one of the big refineries here many years ago. They would bottle their name brand oil, then do a run of generic brand oil to fill an order. Same oil, different jugs. I was young and asked why? Shouldn't you put cheap oil in the cheap jugs?

Too difficult and expensive for them to change the oil being produced. Easier and cheaper just to put the same good stuff in all the different containers.
 
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