You don't know ticking till you buy your first 90's era Mitsubishi V6.
Sludge is bad, but is varnish good?
- Thread starter jsap
- Start date
- Status
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I would like to get back to the original post. If I understand it correctly, OP had more problems after using MMO.
Yes or No?
- Vikas
Good point. For every MMO/lifter success story I read on the internet, I read others where the ticking gets louder and louder and doesn't get any better.
You might say that I need to have MMO in longer, but I've chronicled how I've checked passages and disassembled the lifters and found zero sludge and blockage. And that's what MMO does, right? At this point, all its doing is removing more varnish and creating direct metal-to-metal contact that didn't used to exist. (Again, this is my current working hypothesis, so any comments are welcome.)
Actually it did used to exist; when the car was new! Assume you have a brand new car; do you think the car would be loud after 150K if it had NO varnish? I can't say whether varnish is bad or not, but to say it's beneficial doesn't seem logical to me.
Where have you read stories of the car being louder, just curious? I've used it in 10 or so cars, none ever got "louder". This is the first I've heard.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I would like to get back to the original post. If I understand it correctly, OP had more problems after using MMO.
Yes or No?
- Vikas
Good point. For every MMO/lifter success story I read on the internet, I read others where the ticking gets louder and louder and doesn't get any better.
You might say that I need to have MMO in longer, but I've chronicled how I've checked passages and disassembled the lifters and found zero sludge and blockage. And that's what MMO does, right? At this point, all its doing is removing more varnish and creating direct metal-to-metal contact that didn't used to exist. (Again, this is my current working hypothesis, so any comments are welcome.)
Actually it did used to exist; when the car was new! Assume you have a brand new car; do you think the car would be loud after 150K if it had NO varnish? I can't say whether varnish is bad or not, but to say it's beneficial doesn't seem logical to me.
Where have you read stories of the car being louder, just curious? I've used it in 10 or so cars, none ever got "louder". This is the first I've heard.
Originally Posted By: sprintman
You don't know ticking till you buy your first 90's era Mitsubishi V6.
+1
You don't know ticking till you buy your first 90's era Mitsubishi V6.
+1
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Actually it did used to exist; when the car was new!
Yes, and that's called break-in period.
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Assume you have a brand new car; do you think the car would be loud after 150K if it had NO varnish?
Yes. You've increased clearances between all metals.
Originally Posted By: panthermike
I can't say whether varnish is bad or not, but to say it's beneficial doesn't seem logical to me.
I understand your trepidation, but it also doesn't make sense to me that it's beneficial to remove all varnish and therefore return the engine to a break-in-like condition where no varnish existed. (I say "break-in-like" because the primary purpose of break-in is to remove machining imperfections through abrasion.)
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Where have you read stories of the car being louder, just curious? I've used it in 10 or so cars, none ever got "louder". This is the first I've heard.
I'd have to email you my internet browser history for the past 6 months, but I'm afraid of what else you might find in there.
Maybe next time. I've done enough work for today. 
Actually it did used to exist; when the car was new!
Yes, and that's called break-in period.
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Assume you have a brand new car; do you think the car would be loud after 150K if it had NO varnish?
Yes. You've increased clearances between all metals.
Originally Posted By: panthermike
I can't say whether varnish is bad or not, but to say it's beneficial doesn't seem logical to me.
I understand your trepidation, but it also doesn't make sense to me that it's beneficial to remove all varnish and therefore return the engine to a break-in-like condition where no varnish existed. (I say "break-in-like" because the primary purpose of break-in is to remove machining imperfections through abrasion.)
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Where have you read stories of the car being louder, just curious? I've used it in 10 or so cars, none ever got "louder". This is the first I've heard.
I'd have to email you my internet browser history for the past 6 months, but I'm afraid of what else you might find in there.
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I would like to get back to the original post. If I understand it correctly, OP had more problems after using MMO.
Yes or No?
- Vikas
Good point. For every MMO/lifter success story I read on the internet, I read others where the ticking gets louder and louder and doesn't get any better.
Wow that's news to me. I started using it in the 70's and helped more people resolve issues with it than I can remember. Quieting down ticking lifters and cleaning engines were the major successes I had with it. Only once did it let me down, and as it turned out I needed a cam. If a lifter is sticking from dirt and the cam and lifters are still good MMO works great. I never heard that for every ticking lifter it quieted there were an equal amount that got worse, I'd love to read those stories myself.
Now if the engine is in need of mechanical repair no pour in product is going to work.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
I would like to get back to the original post. If I understand it correctly, OP had more problems after using MMO.
Yes or No?
- Vikas
Good point. For every MMO/lifter success story I read on the internet, I read others where the ticking gets louder and louder and doesn't get any better.
Wow that's news to me. I started using it in the 70's and helped more people resolve issues with it than I can remember. Quieting down ticking lifters and cleaning engines were the major successes I had with it. Only once did it let me down, and as it turned out I needed a cam. If a lifter is sticking from dirt and the cam and lifters are still good MMO works great. I never heard that for every ticking lifter it quieted there were an equal amount that got worse, I'd love to read those stories myself.
Now if the engine is in need of mechanical repair no pour in product is going to work.
Originally Posted By: jsap
I see you guys are fully converted. I'm personally on the fence, so I appreciate your honest off the cuff hyperbole, as well as anyone else's.
As for the detrimental effects of varnish that Jax refers to, those are rather severe cases. More typically, varnish on a modern engine with regular OCI adds relative thickness to passages about as much as a new coat of paint adds to your living room.
Sludge and extreme varnish aside, I'm interested in knowing whether there is a range of varnish that is not only acceptable, but beneficial. Otherwise, everyone who's not dumping kerosene into their crankcase would be suffering premature death left and right.
As for never seeing varnish on friction surfaces, here you go. These are images of an M119.98x. They were taken 600 miles after MMO.
Most varnish was removed, but you can still see remants on the cam lobes. Before MMO, the lobes were almost all brown (except at the very top).
These tappets has a brown tint before MMO, but this image now shows 600 miles of MMO removed much of it.
In both cases, not only was varnish coating the surfaces before MMO, but even after MMO, varnish is now filling in the tiny scratches on the metals, and helping to make for a smoother surface.
The kind of cam lobe and HLA damage that dermapaint described doesn't happen on the Mercedes M119. This engine has 170K+ miles. It's a 5 liter NA 11:1. It achieves low pressures on the cams because it has 4 valves per cylinder (thereby reducing pressures by half), and it has wide lobes and tappets (thereby further reducing pressures).
So, if you have any other considerations on varnish in normative cases (non-extreme, non-abused engines), I'd love to hear them.
That engine is clean, what is the problem with that level of clean? 600 miles of MMO nice cleanup for a 170K mile engine. Looks like it was well maintained to begin with IMO. The varnish you have on friction surfaces is normal, what I was referring to was a solid coat, around the entire surface as well as the bottom of the lifters. I've never seen that. I'm referring to older Ford and GM engines, not newer design OHC engines. I should have been a little clearer.
I see you guys are fully converted. I'm personally on the fence, so I appreciate your honest off the cuff hyperbole, as well as anyone else's.
As for the detrimental effects of varnish that Jax refers to, those are rather severe cases. More typically, varnish on a modern engine with regular OCI adds relative thickness to passages about as much as a new coat of paint adds to your living room.
Sludge and extreme varnish aside, I'm interested in knowing whether there is a range of varnish that is not only acceptable, but beneficial. Otherwise, everyone who's not dumping kerosene into their crankcase would be suffering premature death left and right.
As for never seeing varnish on friction surfaces, here you go. These are images of an M119.98x. They were taken 600 miles after MMO.
Most varnish was removed, but you can still see remants on the cam lobes. Before MMO, the lobes were almost all brown (except at the very top).
These tappets has a brown tint before MMO, but this image now shows 600 miles of MMO removed much of it.
In both cases, not only was varnish coating the surfaces before MMO, but even after MMO, varnish is now filling in the tiny scratches on the metals, and helping to make for a smoother surface.
The kind of cam lobe and HLA damage that dermapaint described doesn't happen on the Mercedes M119. This engine has 170K+ miles. It's a 5 liter NA 11:1. It achieves low pressures on the cams because it has 4 valves per cylinder (thereby reducing pressures by half), and it has wide lobes and tappets (thereby further reducing pressures).
So, if you have any other considerations on varnish in normative cases (non-extreme, non-abused engines), I'd love to hear them.
That engine is clean, what is the problem with that level of clean? 600 miles of MMO nice cleanup for a 170K mile engine. Looks like it was well maintained to begin with IMO. The varnish you have on friction surfaces is normal, what I was referring to was a solid coat, around the entire surface as well as the bottom of the lifters. I've never seen that. I'm referring to older Ford and GM engines, not newer design OHC engines. I should have been a little clearer.
[/quote]Yes, and that's called break-in period.
[/quote]
An engine should stay clean beyond break-in with proper care.
Clearances will increase over time, but by how much? Not always enough to where you "need" varnish.
I've never had the issue you have, the problem of a clean engine being noisy. I can see it now "man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
[/quote]
An engine should stay clean beyond break-in with proper care.
Clearances will increase over time, but by how much? Not always enough to where you "need" varnish.
I've never had the issue you have, the problem of a clean engine being noisy. I can see it now "man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Alright! You got the idea
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Alright! You got the idea
Originally Posted By: Jax_RX8
Beneficial Varnish - Wow!, just Wow!
Varnish is not good in any way, it does:
- Cause Sticky Rings - reducing compression
- Slow down heat transfer to oil as it acts as an insulator - causing engine parts in general to run hotter, affecting wear and stressing metals
- Shrink oil passages - reducing oil flow through engine, reducing cooling and if extreme could cause oil starvation to many components like valve-train (small oil squirters), main bearings, pistons
In general, varnish never accumulates on friction surfaces because it gets rubbed off, but in other ways, it can be very problematic. I do not see any case where varnish can be "beneficial".
In my case (I don't know if you meant to reply to my post, I'm assuming you did), I wasn't claiming varnish was beneficial. I was just stating it was nice to see it for the first time, as it had been covered before by baked on sludge.
Not getting into the "benefits" of varnish, just that its preferable to see over baked on sludge IMHO.
I doubt any would question that varnish is better than sludge.
-Spyder
Beneficial Varnish - Wow!, just Wow!
Varnish is not good in any way, it does:
- Cause Sticky Rings - reducing compression
- Slow down heat transfer to oil as it acts as an insulator - causing engine parts in general to run hotter, affecting wear and stressing metals
- Shrink oil passages - reducing oil flow through engine, reducing cooling and if extreme could cause oil starvation to many components like valve-train (small oil squirters), main bearings, pistons
In general, varnish never accumulates on friction surfaces because it gets rubbed off, but in other ways, it can be very problematic. I do not see any case where varnish can be "beneficial".
In my case (I don't know if you meant to reply to my post, I'm assuming you did), I wasn't claiming varnish was beneficial. I was just stating it was nice to see it for the first time, as it had been covered before by baked on sludge.
Not getting into the "benefits" of varnish, just that its preferable to see over baked on sludge IMHO.
I doubt any would question that varnish is better than sludge.
-Spyder
Originally Posted By: panthermike
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Alright! You got the idea
Just don't forget to post pics after you get back
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Alright! You got the idea
Just don't forget to post pics after you get back
Originally Posted By: jsap
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Don't use polyurethane or two part poly, it is not compatible with all types of varnish.
What you want to add is Spar Varnish, if you can get Marine Spar Varnish you'll have the best varnish in your engine.
Keep in mind Spar Varnish can go over existing varnish or even polyurethane with no compatibility issues. Using poly could cause sludge, you're looking to increase varnish, not sludge.
Please let me know how this works out for you! You can even add MMO to it to thin out the Spar Varnish if you like, it won't flash as fast as mineral spirits, and it will dry it faster. LOL
Originally Posted By: panthermike
"man why did I keep my engine spotless? Wish I had some varnish about now".
That does it. I'm off the fence. You guys have just convinced me that the problem with my engine is that it's too clean.
There's a 24-hr hardware store not far from here. I'm going to go there now, buy a pint of two-part polyurethane outdoor varnish, and pour it in the crankcase at the hardware store parking lot. When I come back, I'll report the results.
Don't use polyurethane or two part poly, it is not compatible with all types of varnish.
Please let me know how this works out for you! You can even add MMO to it to thin out the Spar Varnish if you like, it won't flash as fast as mineral spirits, and it will dry it faster. LOL
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Don't use polyurethane or two part poly, it is not compatible with all types of varnish.
What you want to add is Spar Varnish, if you can get Marine Spar Varnish you'll have the best varnish in your engine.
Keep in mind Spar Varnish can go over existing varnish or even polyurethane with no compatibility issues. Using poly could cause sludge, you're looking to increase varnish, not sludge.
Please let me know how this works out for you! You can even add MMO to it to thin out the Spar Varnish if you like, it won't flash as fast as mineral spirits, and it will dry it faster. LOL
The drive to the hardware store took 20 minutes. I got the 2-part and poured it in, 10 minutes. The return trip home took 11 hours. Mostly because after the hardware store, I stopped by Denney's for a bite, and when I went to the car to start it up, it didn't turn over. Why oh why did you not warn me about varnish compatibility before!
Two theories:
1. The 2-part is incompatible.
2. The existing MMO in the crankcase (I have 1.5 qts in it right now) reacted with the 2-part.
The only conclusions that I can derive is that I need to do this again on a different engine with (1) spar varnish and (2) no existing MMO.
Don't use polyurethane or two part poly, it is not compatible with all types of varnish.
Please let me know how this works out for you! You can even add MMO to it to thin out the Spar Varnish if you like, it won't flash as fast as mineral spirits, and it will dry it faster. LOL
The drive to the hardware store took 20 minutes. I got the 2-part and poured it in, 10 minutes. The return trip home took 11 hours. Mostly because after the hardware store, I stopped by Denney's for a bite, and when I went to the car to start it up, it didn't turn over. Why oh why did you not warn me about varnish compatibility before!
Two theories:
1. The 2-part is incompatible.
2. The existing MMO in the crankcase (I have 1.5 qts in it right now) reacted with the 2-part.
The only conclusions that I can derive is that I need to do this again on a different engine with (1) spar varnish and (2) no existing MMO.
Originally Posted By: Vikas
What is the logical explanation for this case in which car started having *more* noises after MMO than before?
Hold on to your panties. I have here in my possession an email that assures me that I will soon be receiving 10 shiny new lifters.
If replacing the lifters doesn't fix the ticking, then MMO was not at fault. You didn't think I was going to vanish your Magical Mystery Oil without first giving it a fair fight, did ya?
I'll report results after this weekend. My whole point was to float two hypotheses about why the ticking is getting louder: (1) MMO or (2) increasing valve carbon.
Still, why the #2 spark plug is fouling is bothering me. I moved the fuel injector to another cylinder, and I moved the ignition coil to another cylinder as well, and the fouling didn't follow the injector nor the coil. So, I can only assume that either the valve isn't opening right, closing right, bent, chipped, or some wire is bad.
Need leak down first.
What is the logical explanation for this case in which car started having *more* noises after MMO than before?
Hold on to your panties. I have here in my possession an email that assures me that I will soon be receiving 10 shiny new lifters.
If replacing the lifters doesn't fix the ticking, then MMO was not at fault. You didn't think I was going to vanish your Magical Mystery Oil without first giving it a fair fight, did ya?
I'll report results after this weekend. My whole point was to float two hypotheses about why the ticking is getting louder: (1) MMO or (2) increasing valve carbon.
Still, why the #2 spark plug is fouling is bothering me. I moved the fuel injector to another cylinder, and I moved the ignition coil to another cylinder as well, and the fouling didn't follow the injector nor the coil. So, I can only assume that either the valve isn't opening right, closing right, bent, chipped, or some wire is bad.
Need leak down first.
LOL for best results use Marine Spar Varnish. It reduces condensation during short trips, and forms a film a few mils thicker.
Fyi, I replaced my lifters, and it's still ticking after more than a week, so maybe MMO didn't cause anything worse.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
Our ticking has gone in the Pajero/Montero V6 but I would not use 30 oz of RX I used this time (5 quart sump). 24 oz (2 bottles) max.
Originally Posted By: jsap
Fyi, I replaced my lifters, and it's still ticking after more than a week, so maybe MMO didn't cause anything worse.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
I was taught back in the 70's that if you are going to replace lifters you should also replace the cam. I learned that the hard way, trying to resolve a lifter problem in a 302 Mustang I bought as a kid. A friend and I changed out 16 lifters, only to have the annoying tick. When I told my shop teacher, he explained to me that the lifters and cam wear together, now when you mate a new lifter to an old worn cam the lifter will take on the wear pattern the old lifter had, and change the wear surface of the old cam as well. In many cases the noise will not go away.
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
Fyi, I replaced my lifters, and it's still ticking after more than a week, so maybe MMO didn't cause anything worse.
However, what seems to have made the ticking louder might be because the viscosity of the oil changed, so the sound travelled through the engine differently....
No conclusions drawn from this experience regarding MMO. However, I'll stick to my belief that a certain amount of varnish is acceptable. As to whether a certain amount is beneficial, I'll hold off. I sure wish an engineer from a manufacturer would come on and say something.
I was taught back in the 70's that if you are going to replace lifters you should also replace the cam. I learned that the hard way, trying to resolve a lifter problem in a 302 Mustang I bought as a kid. A friend and I changed out 16 lifters, only to have the annoying tick. When I told my shop teacher, he explained to me that the lifters and cam wear together, now when you mate a new lifter to an old worn cam the lifter will take on the wear pattern the old lifter had, and change the wear surface of the old cam as well. In many cases the noise will not go away.
It has nothing to do with adding A-Rx or MMO to an engine. If the lifter was making noise because of dirt that is another story. This can also apply to certain newer engines as well.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked