Sludge cleanup MMO experience + 25% MPG, no kidding

jssaab

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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Don't let naysayers prevent you from posting in the future, I enjoyed your posts. I've found that with MMO there are two groups of people for the most part.. the one's that have used it and like it and the one's who haven't and don't. There's actually no "mystery" to the product. The MSDS lists all the constituents and each has some cleaning properties. Even member Mola' weighed in on MMO a while back after doing an analysis on it in his lab and while he didn't say it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, he also didn't liken it to snake oil. Is it the strongest cleaner out there, definitely not. But if you're not looking for a harsh cleaner it's def' worth giving a try, especially given it's low cost and many other uses. Live long and prosper brother...✌️
Thanks, I participate in enough boards to know how to not take things personally I have no time for personal attacks and frankly there has been nearly none of that here but plenty of lively discussions. ( Go to the BMW or Jaguar boards if you want to be called an idiot or fat or have your family insulted) I've learned a lot, taught myself more and made some friends. The fact that there is a board dedicated to oil blew my mind. And there are people who have poseted 20 K + times. who knew. I came here got some info on how to deal with a sludged engine to save a great car I bought from a guy who washed it and waxed it and left in in the garage all winter but never maintained it, I mean at all. It had metal on metal brakes, bald tires ( his wife drove the car so I figured he had a HUGE insurance policy on her) . , coolant was nearly all water, soft top leaked like a sieve. But is was pretty and really clean for a 14 year old car. And I love Saabs (have had 10). This one had the VVT V6 and I will be tuning it to 400 hp once I am convinced the engine can take it and has enough longevity. Last time I had a sludged car, I cleaned with with a bunch of oil changes and then there was a rod knock, I used MMO and the knock went away. That was before the internetz. This time I wanted to learn more about oils and additives and I did, and then some
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Molakule NOT classifying a relatively benign additive, such as MMO, as snake oil = quite the endorsement. no-no
Not sure that is sarcasm since Molekule is an unknown to me.. I will look into it
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Originally Posted by gathermewool
Molakule NOT classifying a relatively benign additive, such as MMO, as snake oil = quite the endorsement. no-no
That was my thinking given his credentials. Here's the thread... https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4664422/1
Interesting, I did not come across this when I was looking to clean my engine. Good to know, I am not stupid it seems. New info for me is not to leave it in there that long. I will change to the HDEO this weekend (total 2500 with 20% MMO.
 
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Anybody ever know of anyone adding transmission fluid to the crankcase? Knew of an old mechanic guy back in the early ‘70's who claimed it would keep an engine clean from sludge.
 
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Originally Posted by kstanf150
Anybody ever know of anyone adding transmission fluid to the crankcase? Knew of an old mechanic guy back in the early ‘70's who claimed it would keep an engine clean from sludge.
That's been discussed (and debunked) about 100 times on here. ATF has nowhere near the additive levels of a typical motor oil so all you're doing is diluting the oil. I'm surprised you haven't seen those numerous threads/posts in the past nine years.
 
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Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by kstanf150
Anybody ever know of anyone adding transmission fluid to the crankcase? Knew of an old mechanic guy back in the early ‘70's who claimed it would keep an engine clean from sludge.
That's been discussed (and debunked) about 100 times on here. ATF has nowhere near the additive levels of a typical motor oil so all you're doing is diluting the oil. I'm surprised you haven't seen those numerous threads/posts in the past nine years.
When I catch up to your 891avg. post a year maybe I'll see everything on here. I'm only averaging 168
 

gathermewool

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Molakule is one of the most highly respected members on here. In the linked thread, you'll notice that he almost goes as far as to say that MMO is worthless today, i.e., he doesn't quite go so far as to say that it's snake oil. What is clear from that thread, is that MMO really has no place in the gas tank and does VERY little in the oil sump. // In the end, regardless of how you got there, I'm just glad you got that thing running and are having apparent luck in desludging it.
 

gathermewool

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Originally Posted by kstanf150
Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by kstanf150
Anybody ever know of anyone adding transmission fluid to the crankcase? Knew of an old mechanic guy back in the early ‘70's who claimed it would keep an engine clean from sludge.
That's been discussed (and debunked) about 100 times on here. ATF has nowhere near the additive levels of a typical motor oil so all you're doing is diluting the oil. I'm surprised you haven't seen those numerous threads/posts in the past nine years.
When I catch up to your 891avg. post a year maybe I'll see everything on here. I'm only averaging 168
Maybe we're wrong, but I've always taken time-in-service to be more important than post count, assuming that people like you, who signed up a while ago but don't post often, is doing more reading than posting. So, one can then assume that you've been reading and learning at least a little over the past 8+ years. Even if you haven't been paying attention, you also have the ability, like the rest of us, to search for the answer, which will immediately provide for you the answer you seek.
 
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Originally Posted by gathermewool
Originally Posted by kstanf150
Originally Posted by kschachn
[quote=kstanf150]Anybody ever know of anyone adding transmission fluid to the crankcase? Knew of an old mechanic guy back in the early ‘70's who claimed it would keep an engine clean from sludge.
That's been discussed (and debunked) about 100 times on here. ATF has nowhere near the additive levels of a typical motor oil so all you're doing is diluting the oil. I'm surprised you haven't seen those numerous threads/posts in the past nine years.
When I catch up to your 891avg. post a year maybe I'll see everything on here. I'm only averaging 168
Maybe we're wrong, but I've always taken time-in-service to be more important than post count, assuming that people like you, who signed up a while ago but don't post often, is doing more reading than posting. So, one can then assume that you've been reading and learning at least a little over the past 8+ years. Even if you haven't been paying attention, you also have the ability, like the rest of us, to search for the answer, which will immediately provide for you the answer Some of you guys on here really love to puff out your chest and make a big deal out something really meaningless
 
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Originally Posted by gathermewool
Molakule is one of the most highly respected members on here. In the linked thread, you'll notice that he almost goes as far as to say that MMO is worthless today, i.e., he doesn't quite go so far as to say that it's snake oil. What is clear from that thread, is that MMO really has no place in the gas tank and does VERY little in the oil sump. // In the end, regardless of how you got there, I'm just glad you got that thing running and are having apparent luck in desludging it.
If your engine is failing and your not going to fix MMO in the gas does help cover up the issue. I had a 98 Buick with the wonderful plastic intake that breaks, I had a miss in Cylinder 5, car would stall at stoplights add MMO no miss no stall, I drove many years/miles on a failed engine that way. Could another top lube do the same, probably but if your engine is damaged and your not gonna fix what is the harm?
 
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Originally Posted by gathermewool
In the linked thread, you'll notice that he almost goes as far as to say that MMO is worthless today, i.e., he doesn't quite go so far as to say that it's snake oil. What is clear from that thread, is that MMO really has no place in the gas tank and does VERY little in the oil sump.
Did we read the same thread because that's not what I got out of it. He a) interprets the chemistry and later in the thread b) gives his opinion on efficacy, with respect to modern engines and oil. So you're kinda dismissing some important context. Luckily, we have the actual words he used, and not my or your interpretation, to clear up any confusion. I think they speak for themselves. And fwiw, I agree with his position on efficacy, unless you have some specific and known issue you're trying to address there simply is no need to use MMO on a regular basis. If you've been good about doing your oil changes and on time, sludge should be at a minimum. Therefore, there is no demonstrable need or benefit to be gained by using MMO on a regular basis as for a engine additive. The efficacy of use in the fuel is probably more debatable and boils down to more of a cost/benefit ROI thing. It's a relatively cheap product, so no matter how little of a cleaning effect it has in the fuel system the ROI is still probably in your favor but again, I find myself agreeing with Mola'.. setting aside the question of cost and looking at it from a performance standpoint, there are much better fuel cleaners out there. I think we could all agree with that, no? He states...
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Cutehumor
what's your professional opinion of this stuff Mola?
1) Probably a decent fuel system cleaner, 2) and flush for adding to oil just before changing it. This is assuming of course you have evidence of, or suspect a dirty engine. ..When the oils were low detergent oils such as SB through SF, it might have helped. Modern oils have such high detergency I doubt you really need to use this in concert with an engine oil. As for fuel systems, the more modern Redline SI-1 and Techron should take care of any fuel system and upper engine area cleaning.
And he further goes on to say later in the thread...
Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by JAG
Originally Posted by GMorg
Any idea what the molecular source of phosphorous is? In the absence of other metals, can anything be safely assumed about the source of phosphorus?
I've read many times that it's tricresyl phosphate.
It's TCP because there is was no appreciable sulfur found. TCP was originally used as a scavenger in fuel (1900's) before it was found to be an Anti-wear additive in lubricants. The amount of phos in MMO is used to make up for the reduction of phos when MMO is added to motor oil. I still don't see any use for it in motor oils, and as a fuel additive, it may have some minor cleaning effects.
 
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MolaKule

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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
...TCP was originally used as a scavenger in fuel (1900's) before it was found to be an Anti-wear additive in lubricants. The amount of phos in MMO is used to make up for the reduction of phos when MMO is added to motor oil. I still don't see any use for it in motor oils, and as a fuel additive, it may have some minor cleaning effects.
I said it MAY have minor cleaning effects because of the orthochlorobenzenes but let's be careful to remember two things: MMO will thin your engine oil depending on the grade of your engine oil to begin with. With a 2.3 cSt viscosity MMO will thin a 10W30 down to about 5W20 in a 1 to 5 ratio. The extra phosphorus contained in MMO when added to fuel will add to the phos load in your catalytic converter. For fuel system cleaning the cheap ole Berryman's B-12 has most of the solvent cleaning chemistry you will ever need for adding to fuel. For combustion chamber cleaning one can follow up with any of PEA fuel system fuel additives. Anytime an engine crankcase cleaner is used always change oil and filter afterwords. Never drive with any of these thin flush type cleaners in the crankcase.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
...TCP was originally used as a scavenger in fuel (1900's) before it was found to be an Anti-wear additive in lubricants. The amount of phos in MMO is used to make up for the reduction of phos when MMO is added to motor oil. I still don't see any use for it in motor oils, and as a fuel additive, it may have some minor cleaning effects.
I said it MAY have minor cleaning effects because of the orthochlorobenzenes but let's be careful to remember two things: MMO will thin your engine oil depending on the grade of your engine oil to begin with. With a 2.3 cSt viscosity MMO will thin a 10W30 down to about 5W20 in a 1 to 5 ratio. The extra phosphorus contained in MMO when added to fuel will add to the phos load in your catalytic converter. For fuel system cleaning the cheap ole Berryman's B-12 has most of the solvent cleaning chemistry you will ever need for adding to fuel. For combustion chamber cleaning one can follow up with any of PEA fuel system fuel additives. Anytime an engine crankcase cleaner is used always change oil and filter afterwords. Never drive with any of these thin flush type cleaners in the crankcase.
Reply-Post of the week right there! Thank you Molakule for your Contributions & Service to this website.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
I said it MAY have minor cleaning effects because of the orthochlorobenzenes but let's be careful to remember two things: MMO will thin your engine oil depending on the grade of your engine oil to begin with. With a 2.3 cSt viscosity MMO will thin a 10W30 down to about 5W20 in a 1 to 5 ratio. The extra phosphorus contained in MMO when added to fuel will add to the phos load in your catalytic converter. For fuel system cleaning the cheap ole Berryman's B-12 has most of the solvent cleaning chemistry you will ever need for adding to fuel. For combustion chamber cleaning one can follow up with any of PEA fuel system fuel additives. Anytime an engine crankcase cleaner is used always change oil and filter afterwords. Never drive with any of these thin flush type cleaners in the crankcase.
Right. Hopefully you don't feel I misrepresented what you said, as I provided the exact text of your post for reference and tried to stay away from any embellishments. I reread each of my posts and I believe I was consistent with what you stated, that a) there's no need for regular use and b) while MMO is technically a cleaner (each of it's constituents has some cleaning effect) it's not necessarily the best (-a somewhat nebulous term) cleaner as there are a host of other OTC products, like MotorMedic or Berryman's for example, that do an arguably better (-another nebulous term) job. But I do believe not everyone's looking for aggressive, sometimes slower is better. Just my 2 cents... Question..if MMO has 631ppm of phos and is replacing an equal amount of oil, would it increase phos load on the cat over and above what phos lvls are in an SN rated lube? Or are you suggesting it would increase load due to oil thinning? Whereas the newly thinned out oil could seep past seals and rings and be burned up? I suppose that's a possibility.. fwiw, whenever I've used MMO in the crankcase I've done so with thicker oil (knowing in advance my plan was to use MMO) or immediately drained after a short run/idle period.
 
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MolaKule

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Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Right. Hopefully you don't feel I misrepresented what you said, as I provided the exact text of your post for reference and tried to stay away from any embellishments. I reread each of my posts and I believe I was consistent with what you stated, that a) there's no need for regular use and b) while MMO is technically a cleaner (each of it's constituents has some cleaning effect) it's not necessarily the best (-a somewhat nebulous term) cleaner as there are a host of other OTC products, like MotorMedic or Berryman's for example, that do an arguably better (-another nebulous term) job. But I do believe not everyone's looking for aggressive, sometimes slower is better. Just my 2 cents... Question..if MMO has 631ppm of phos and is replacing an equal amount of oil, would it increase phos load on the cat over and above what phos lvls are in an SN rated lube? Or are you suggesting it would increase load due to oil thinning? Whereas the newly thinned out oil could seep past seals and rings and be burned up? I suppose that's a possibility.. fwiw, whenever I've used MMO in the crankcase I've done so with thicker oil (knowing in advance my plan was to use MMO) or immediately drained after a short run/idle period.
No you did not misrepresent what I said but that statement I made has further implications. smile The Berryman's B-12 is to be used in the Fuel System only, not the engine crankcase. Modern fuels are 100 times cleaner and modern oils have much higher detergency than did the oils grandpa used. MMO was ok in its day for scavenging lead deposits when fuel contained tetraethyl lead. When MMO is added to fuel the extra phos will be mixed with a fuel that originally had NO phos. Since fuel is much more volatile the added phos will be immediately found in the exhaust gasses and passed to the CAT. Engine oil is less volatile so the amount of phos released will be less. If one believes their engine has lots of sludge then pan removal and pickup screen cleaning should be done. If the pan cannot be removed, then slow cleaning with modern high detergent oils and frequent filter changes is, in my opinion, the best method. I.e, 1.5k OCI's should be done until the engine is cleaned to your satisfaction.
 
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jssaab

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Hoo booyy, what did I start. Only one bit of personal attacks, that's not bad for the internetz... Based on my more thorough read of the MMO analysis and Molekule's recommendation (and sincere thanks to all those who posted here) like I said I will remove the MMO this weekend and use HDEO. for a couple of changes Right now with 10W30 and 1:5 MMO for 2500 miles in sub 40 weather I don't think the resulting 5W-20 will be an issue (and had been told that in another thread) but it's not a big deal to change that. Oil level is still spot on the level when I filled it. Filter looks great. All is good, I am a happy camper, thanks again.
 

MolaKule

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Originally Posted by jssaab
Hoo booyy, what did I start. Only one bit of personal attacks, that's not bad for the internetz...
I looked back through the posts and didn't see any personal attacks but if we missed one, let us know as personal attacks are not permitted here. I did see both agreements and disagreements with your product usage. I think your gas mileage claim is the most contested. Even a well-tuned vehicle with all synthetic Low Viscosity fluids strain to show more than 1% mpg improvements according to industry mpg tests.
 
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Originally Posted by gathermewool
Molakule is one of the most highly respected members on here. In the linked thread, you'll notice that he almost goes as far as to say that MMO is worthless today, i.e., he doesn't quite go so far as to say that it's snake oil. What is clear from that thread, is that MMO really has no place in the gas tank and does VERY little in the oil sump. // In the end, regardless of how you got there, I'm just glad you got that thing running and are having apparent luck in desludging it.
*MolaKule's exact words when asked his professional opinion by Cutehumor : : Originally Posted By: Cutehumor what's your professional opinion of this stuff Mola? 1) Probably a decent fuel system cleaner, 2) and flush for adding to oil just before changing it. This is assuming of course you have evidence of, or suspect a dirty engine. Since it has a very low viscosity, I certainly wouldn't leave it in the engine oil as it might thin it down to much, especially if your oil is already a XW20 weight oil. When the oils were low detergent oils such as SB through SF, it might have helped. Modern oils have such high detergency I doubt you really need to use this in concert with an engine oil. As for fuel systems, the more modern Redline SI-1 and Techron should take care of any fuel system and upper engine area cleaning.
 
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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by Mad_Hatter
Right. Hopefully you don't feel I misrepresented what you said, as I provided the exact text of your post for reference and tried to stay away from any embellishments. I reread each of my posts and I believe I was consistent with what you stated, that a) there's no need for regular use and b) while MMO is technically a cleaner (each of it's constituents has some cleaning effect) it's not necessarily the best (-a somewhat nebulous term) cleaner as there are a host of other OTC products, like MotorMedic or Berryman's for example, that do an arguably better (-another nebulous term) job. But I do believe not everyone's looking for aggressive, sometimes slower is better. Just my 2 cents... Question..if MMO has 631ppm of phos and is replacing an equal amount of oil, would it increase phos load on the cat over and above what phos lvls are in an SN rated lube? Or are you suggesting it would increase load due to oil thinning? Whereas the newly thinned out oil could seep past seals and rings and be burned up? I suppose that's a possibility.. fwiw, whenever I've used MMO in the crankcase I've done so with thicker oil (knowing in advance my plan was to use MMO) or immediately drained after a short run/idle period.
No you did not misrepresent what I said but that statement I made has further implications. smile The Berryman's B-12 is to be used in the Fuel System only, not the engine crankcase. Modern fuels are 100 times cleaner and modern oils have much higher detergency than did the oils grandpa used. MMO was ok in its day for scavenging lead deposits when fuel contained tetraethyl lead. When MMO is added to fuel the extra phos will be mixed with a fuel that originally had NO phos. Since fuel is much more volatile the added phos will be immediately found in the exhaust gasses and passed to the CAT. Engine oil is less volatile so the amount of phos released will be less. If one believes their engine has lots of sludge then pan removal and pickup screen cleaning should be done. If the pan cannot be removed, then slow cleaning with modern high detergent oils and frequent filter changes is, in my opinion, the best method. I.e, 1.5k OCI's should be done until the engine is cleaned to your satisfaction.
Roger that - I failed to consider the effects of in fuel use, that's something to remember.. and thank you for expanding on your comments, it's very helpful. I think using a HDEO for reasonable drain intervals was where the OP was ultimately headed.. which needless to say is good advice. The VPB he plans on using should clean out his engine in short order. Once again, thanks...👍
 
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jssaab

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Originally Posted by MolaKule
Originally Posted by jssaab
Hoo booyy, what did I start. Only one bit of personal attacks, that's not bad for the internetz...
I looked back through the posts and didn't see any personal attacks but if we missed one, let us know as personal attacks are not permitted here. I did see both agreements and disagreements with your product usage. I think your gas mileage claim is the most contested. Even a well-tuned vehicle with all synthetic Low Viscosity fluids strain to show more than 1% mpg improvements according to industry mpg tests.
Well I am not sure how badly sludge affects a VVT engine in reducing mileage so I can't for sure tell you what good oil, MMO or any fluid including pee would do to help it get back to the expected highway MPG. I factually reported my process, including oil changes and adding MMO for people to interpret ( and I have learned a lot from the interpretation) As I said, multiple times now, regardless of how I did it, the sludged engine went from 22/23 mpg to 28 after my MMO clean up (yes that included oil change, and I so stated) and is now clean... I never said that it was properly running and it increased my mpg. Sorry if that is what was interpreted from my thread title "Sludged engine MMO cleanup +25% increase in MPG" perhaps there is a way for me to be more clear to the real oil folks, I am all ears. And the personal attacks were no biggie, perhaps I am a bit sensitive but usually when people go after others, I am from Philadelphia and opinions of stranger on the internet doesn't mean [email protected] to me. No need to worry here, everyone was polite just a bit feisty, about oil, who knew, you'd think this was about politics or guns (please no please don;t go there)....all good
 
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