Silverado EV Debut Jan. 2022. ~$30,000 Equinox EV and Blazer EV Coming

Does anyone know how productive Lithium mining is? By that I mean how much ore is generally required to extract a pound of Lithium, as compared to Aluminum, Titanium, and other light metals? I know it's lightest of all, and has more volume per pound, etc.

And I've read that China is the third largest producer of Lithium in the world. They're not exactly our friends. So it's not the most common metal, and it's mined by a lot of people who hate us. Plus the demand for it has skyrocketed in the last decade due to battery production.

That doesn't seem to add up to a 85% drop in price. Was this stuff that overpriced before? I'm trying to understand the price collapse during a period of such high demand. That seems economically reversed.
 
Last edited:
"Keeping up with the news from GM is like drinking from a firehose."

......because when you aren't delivering anything till the fall of 2023 you have to talk a lot.

I suspect the new low end price point will be 25K by that time or earlier.
 
Depends on what quality you want. I think Chinese has a $3k "EV" that is basically a golf cart with an enclosure, so 30k can still get you something that's a Smart For 2 EV if done right.
The Chinese EV is $5K, is tiny and has little to no crash protection. It is, however, the #1 selling EV in the world.
If I remember correctly, it might even be GM or partially GM.
 
Tesla is really missing the boat by not prioritizing a sub- $30K EV. It's Elon's company and he can do what he wants and he is putting maximum effort into perfecting FSD and the robots which he feels will bring many times more revenue to the company than would selling inexpensive EV's. So I get it.

The result of his decision will open the door to other automakers to sell entry level EV's and I am sure that consumers will gobble them up. But I also believe that consumers will be getting mediocre vehicles compared to what Tesla could produce. I get an uneasy feeling that it will be like Pintos and Vegas all over again when GM and Ford scramble to fill a market niche without sufficient time and resources to really develop a superior product. Maybe VW will have a successful and high quality EV available in that price range ?
 
Tesla is really missing the boat by not prioritizing a sub- $30K EV. It's Elon's company and he can do what he wants and he is putting maximum effort into perfecting FSD and the robots which he feels will bring many times more revenue to the company than would selling inexpensive EV's. So I get it.

The result of his decision will open the door to other automakers to sell entry level EV's and I am sure that consumers will gobble them up. But I also believe that consumers will be getting mediocre vehicles compared to what Tesla could produce. I get an uneasy feeling that it will be like Pintos and Vegas all over again when GM and Ford scramble to fill a market niche without sufficient time and resources to really develop a superior product. Maybe VW will have a successful and high quality EV available in that price range ?

I'm pretty sure when tesla can actually make money at 25K they will be there.
Anyone can price anything as they see fit - but making money on it is a different story.
GM and ford can lose money on EV's and make it up on ICE Tesla cannot do that.

I think he should start a spinoff private company to do the robots and leave wall street high and dry.
He'll get all the funding he wants or needs privately and wont have to deal with the streets BS.
 
Tesla is really missing the boat by not prioritizing a sub- $30K EV. It's Elon's company and he can do what he wants and he is putting maximum effort into perfecting FSD and the robots which he feels will bring many times more revenue to the company than would selling inexpensive EV's. So I get it.

The result of his decision will open the door to other automakers to sell entry level EV's and I am sure that consumers will gobble them up. But I also believe that consumers will be getting mediocre vehicles compared to what Tesla could produce. I get an uneasy feeling that it will be like Pintos and Vegas all over again when GM and Ford scramble to fill a market niche without sufficient time and resources to really develop a superior product. Maybe VW will have a successful and high quality EV available in that price range ?
GM lost like $9K on every Bolt they sold. And they sold a lot of 'em. They will have to do well on their ICE vehicles or this just might kill them.
 
GM lost like $9K on every Bolt they sold. And they sold a lot of 'em. They will have to do well on their ICE vehicles or this just might kill them.

Guys that are disappointed he isn't there aren't following the program - he's almost there.

With the ability to stamp out half the car in 2 parts and a stressed member battery of 4680's - hell be ready.

Panasonic just signed on, and he's building them himself - this new pack and build technique is what makes the 25K version work.

I heard Austin will be starting with 4680's...
 
Guys that are disappointed he isn't there aren't following the program - he's almost there.

With the ability to stamp out half the car in 2 parts and a stressed member battery of 4680's - hell be ready.

Panasonic just signed on, and he's building them himself - this new pack and build technique is what makes the 25K version work.

I heard Austin will be starting with 4680's...
Sometimes I think a lot of people fail to grasp the buisness end of the car industry. Tesla now builds cars faster and their margins are 7-8 times higher than industry average. That's Porsche territory!
And they now have 2 world class factories coming on line. These factories are more advanced than any other car factory in the world.
Profit margins will only increase as sales numbers increase because fixed costs are spread over more cars. And huge savings on vehicle delivery costs!
What does this mean from a business standpoint? One, they are more profitable, but it also offers incredible leverage. They could beat up any competition by lowering MSRP and still be highly profitable.

As far as who has the best EV technology, take a look at Munro's videos. Recent BITOG threads spoke to the multi vehicle platform such as BMW's. Yeah, you can make different cars with different drivetrains, but as an EV they are inferior because they are a compromise. This is manufacturing engineering.
Other car manufacturers just might be in deep yogurt. Interesting times ahead, indeed. The Tesla "fad" is just getting started.

Your thoughts?
 
Sometimes I think a lot of people fail to grasp the business end of the car industry. Tesla now builds cars faster and their margins are 7-8 times higher than industry average. That's Porsche territory!
And they now have 2 world class factories coming on line. These factories are more advanced than any other car factory in the world.
Profit margins will only increase as sales numbers increase because fixed costs are spread over more cars. And huge savings on vehicle delivery costs!
What does this mean from a business standpoint? One, they are more profitable, but it also offers incredible leverage. They could beat up any competition by lowering MSRP and still be highly profitable.

As far as who has the best EV technology, take a look at Munro's videos. Recent BITOG threads spoke to the multi vehicle platform such as BMW's. Yeah, you can make different cars with different drivetrains, but as an EV they are inferior because they are a compromise. This is manufacturing engineering.
Other car manufacturers just might be in deep yogurt. Interesting times ahead, indeed. The Tesla "fad" is just getting started.

Your thoughts?
Here are my thoughts:

With great fanfare, GM produced the "Voltec" platform, with the idea that they would make EV's, Hybrids, Plug in Hybrids, Sports Cars, Luxury Cars, and everything in between. What actually happened: GM discontinued the Volt, halted production of the Bolt and despite an EV history going back to the 1990's EV-1, GM makes no viable EV's or batteries at the moment, only promises.

BMW started to produce some seriously complex EV's/Hybrids such as the i8 and i3, with bizarre and overly heavy/complex batteries, many of these batteries ended up being scrapped and sold on the secondary market.

Hyundai is making EV's with pouch cell technology that is decades old, hoping that the lower price of admission will offset the expense of guaranteed future problems.

Jaguar just builds the iPace in Austria parts with non Jaguar parts.

Nissan's leaf really shows the way. With ever declining range, and expensive battery replacement options.

The list goes on and on.


Tesla has pushed the battery technology to it's practical limits and that is in their favor. With many years of experience, a constant culture of battery, controller and motor upgrades, a great deal of understanding and so on. Tesla may have uneven body gaps, but they know how to manufacture, package, wire, cool, manage the charge/dischage of an EV battery. It's nice to think others will get it right the first time out. History says otherwise.

There is a reason people go nuts for used Tesla cells, pulled from wrecked cars. They hold up to abuse, have great energy density and are very, very reliable.

slide9-3.JPG
 
Last edited:
Sometimes I think a lot of people fail to grasp the buisness end of the car industry. Tesla now builds cars faster and their margins are 7-8 times higher than industry average. That's Porsche territory!
And they now have 2 world class factories coming on line. These factories are more advanced than any other car factory in the world.
Profit margins will only increase as sales numbers increase because fixed costs are spread over more cars. And huge savings on vehicle delivery costs!
What does this mean from a business standpoint? One, they are more profitable, but it also offers incredible leverage. They could beat up any competition by lowering MSRP and still be highly profitable.

As far as who has the best EV technology, take a look at Munro's videos. Recent BITOG threads spoke to the multi vehicle platform such as BMW's. Yeah, you can make different cars with different drivetrains, but as an EV they are inferior because they are a compromise. This is manufacturing engineering.
Other car manufacturers just might be in deep yogurt. Interesting times ahead, indeed. The Tesla "fad" is just getting started.

Your thoughts?

I think you hit the nail on the head.

There are all kinds of advantages a dedicated platform brings.

The lightness buys you more MPKWH and you can put in a smaller battery but still compete range wise....

Unified control is one of the big ones missing on a shared platform so far- I dont think anyones going to retracotively apply it to an ICE, but if they dont have it going forward its going to cost money and not be updatable remotely.

As CuJet says their experience in dealing with batteries and charging puts them ahead of the game, it will take some time to match their expertise.
 
I think you hit the nail on the head.

There are all kinds of advantages a dedicated platform brings.

The lightness buys you more MPKWH and you can put in a smaller battery but still compete range wise....

Unified control is one of the big ones missing on a shared platform so far- I dont think anyones going to retracotively apply it to an ICE, but if they dont have it going forward its going to cost money and not be updatable remotely.

As CuJet says their experience in dealing with batteries and charging puts them ahead of the game, it will take some time to match their expertise.
Actually, I was interested in your thoughts regarding the financial strengths that Tesla currently enjoys, primarily their stellar margins. I believe this allows for incredible leverage over their competition, from a business standpoint. If they chose to, Tesla could drop their selling price to under cut any competition while still maintaining profitability. Other companies are just beginning their EV engineering and manufacturing line projects. It is thought that most companies are losing money on each EV, basically subsidizing their EV BU with their ICE BU. Ford and GM live by their truck business. EV projects consume part of those profits rather than add to them, and the truck BU now has competition for scarce corporate resources.

This is why I believe it is at least possible that some companies may be in trouble. The C-Level must be worried.
 
Actually, I was interested in your thoughts regarding the financial strengths that Tesla currently enjoys, primarily their stellar margins. I believe this allows for incredible leverage over their competition, from a business standpoint. If they chose to, Tesla could drop their selling price to under cut any competition while still maintaining profitability. Other companies are just beginning their EV engineering and manufacturing line projects. It is thought that most companies are losing money on each EV, basically subsidizing their EV BU with their ICE BU. Ford and GM live by their truck business. EV projects consume part of those profits rather than add to them, and the truck BU now has competition for scarce corporate resources.

This is why I believe it is at least possible that some companies may be in trouble. The C-Level must be worried.

We're aligned there as well.

Telsa has massive financial clout enough to move on any opportunity or multiple opportunities concurrently.
They could at any moment reduce margin simply to be more competitive and still be profitable.

No other auto manufacturer has 30K + "fuel" stations.
No other manufacturer has a subscription based driver automation of any meaningful amount.
 
I see Uncle Dave's argument that GM and Ford can lose money on EV's and make it up on ICE vehicles. But not for long when those automakers have profit margins of around 7-8% and Tesla is approaching 30%. And not for long when the demand for EV's keeps increasing, especially if there are several sub- $30k models available to choose from.

Maybe Elon is being cagey when he says that an entry level EV is not a high priority at the moment. TSLA is such a money making machine that he could also sell an entry level EV at a very slim margin and crush the competition and not really feel the loss in overall profits to a meaningful degree.

Think about it: Let's say in September of 2023 Ford, GM and Tesla all announce their 2024 vehicle lineup and that includes EV's that fully loaded sell for about what a fully loaded Toyota Corolla does. All three claim a 300 mile range.
What percentage of buyers would buy a Tesla because of their known reputation and what percentage would buy a Ford or GM due to brand loyalty and maybe a dislike of Tesla for purely emotional reasons ?

I'm guessing Ford and GM would be licking their wounds for quite some time.
 
I see Uncle Dave's argument that GM and Ford can lose money on EV's and make it up on ICE vehicles. But not for long when those automakers have profit margins of around 7-8% and Tesla is approaching 30%. And not for long when the demand for EV's keeps increasing, especially if there are several sub- $30k models available to choose from.

Maybe Elon is being cagey when he says that an entry level EV is not a high priority at the moment. TSLA is such a money making machine that he could also sell an entry level EV at a very slim margin and crush the competition and not really feel the loss in overall profits to a meaningful degree.

Think about it: Let's say in September of 2023 Ford, GM and Tesla all announce their 2024 vehicle lineup and that includes EV's that fully loaded sell for about what a fully loaded Toyota Corolla does. All three claim a 300 mile range.
What percentage of buyers would buy a Tesla because of their known reputation and what percentage would buy a Ford or GM due to brand loyalty and maybe a dislike of Tesla for purely emotional reasons ?

I'm guessing Ford and GM would be licking their wounds for quite some time.
PS: I wish Elon would STHU regarding his plans to prioritize other projects besides selling EV's. TSLA stock value took a major dive even after posting absolutely stellar numbers for Q4 2021 and 2021 in total and I believe that investor panic was the reason for it. There is no logical reason that TSLA shouldn't be above $1250 today based upon their performance as an automaker.
 
Actually, I was interested in your thoughts regarding the financial strengths that Tesla currently enjoys, primarily their stellar margins. I believe this allows for incredible leverage over their competition, from a business standpoint. If they chose to, Tesla could drop their selling price to under cut any competition while still maintaining profitability. Other companies are just beginning their EV engineering and manufacturing line projects. It is thought that most companies are losing money on each EV, basically subsidizing their EV BU with their ICE BU. Ford and GM live by their truck business. EV projects consume part of those profits rather than add to them, and the truck BU now has competition for scarce corporate resources.

This is why I believe it is at least possible that some companies may be in trouble. The C-Level must be worried.
My opinion you probably know already: Tesla is an innovator and big risk taker on the EV and battery technologies. They are way ahead of the competitors and since they are in the near luxury / luxury market, they are eating BMW and Mercedes' lunch, with enough market for now regardless of profit margin and R&D budget. They also have enough demand for their stocks that they can basically make money selling shares to R&D for anything they can think of, they will make money but just a matter of how much. They also are innovators so they can hire talents for cheap and work them like a slave owner, and they will still be happy because of the stocks and Tesla name on their resumes.

However, their bigger problem is whether they can expand beyond luxury market, and compete with the lower cost manufacturers like Toyota and big 3 in their own turf. The EV only market will not be replacing ICE market even in 2035 and by that time Tesla may need to face lower margin and more demanding customers, and that would be when they may struggle. Commoditization is their biggest enemy.

The biggest problem as investors is whether their stock price and return reflect who they are today, or who they will be in 2035. If they are reflecting who they will be in 2035 then there is not much return to invest in them today as there may not be much gain but a lot of risk to invest in them. If they still have room to grow how do they compare to other companies, and how risky is buying shares in their stock price today?
 
Lithium ion batteries are going to be recycled and already are. The amount reclaimed is said to be 95%. There go the theories about endless mining and throw away batteries out the window.
With these oil prices world wide no wonder Tesla can get $55000 out the door price for a standard range 3. White or gray. Other colors are extra. That is some money.
 
Electric cars and trucks? Resist!

https://www.instituteforenergyresea...ric-vehicle-subsidies-on-the-road-to-nowhere/

Let the Market decide, instead of consumer subsidies and other tax creds. And yes, I know the familiar argument. So, remove any and all subsidies for all industries and persons -- across the spectrum. Again, let the markets and peoples drive innovation and choice, not the deep-pocket know-it-all skimmers, those surrounding a certain beltway on the eastern seaboard.
 
Last edited:
Electric cars and trucks? Resist!

https://www.instituteforenergyresea...ric-vehicle-subsidies-on-the-road-to-nowhere/

Let the Market decide, instead of consumer subsidies and other tax creds. And yes, I know the familiar argument, so remove any and all subsidies for all industries and persons -- across the spectrum. Again, let the markets and peoples drive innovation and choice.
I tend to agree, but question for you...
Would you do away with gas and oil subsidies as well and let the market decide?
 
Back
Top Bottom