Shop refused to mount my tires

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Is it your contention that NOBODY runs snows all year?
No. It is my contention that anyone running snows at highway speed in warm or hot weather should expect problems and is solely responsible for the result.

But that's exactly the point of this thread; people who are stupid enough to run snow tires in July are exactly the same people who will cry "no one told me not to do that" and want to sue. Remember this is America, where everything is someone ELSE'S fault.


Stupid people shouldn't be allowed to sue...doing so upsets the natural balance of mother nature's way of thinning the herd...

 

[IndyIan]

Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Is it your contention that NOBODY runs snows all year?
No. It is my contention that anyone running snows at highway speed in warm or hot weather should expect problems and is solely responsible for the result.

But that's exactly the point of this thread; people who are stupid enough to run snow tires in July are exactly the same people who will cry "no one told me not to do that" and want to sue. Remember this is America, where everything is someone ELSE'S fault.

Actually I don't think there's a big problem running winter tires in the summer at reasonable speeds. I've never read any manufacturer warning against it, and have had no problems running half worn winters in the summer, but I don't run 80mph in 90+F either.

 

[faramir9]

Originally Posted By: IndyIan
Originally Posted By: RF Overlord
Originally Posted By: yonyon
Originally Posted By: Jarlaxle
Is it your contention that NOBODY runs snows all year?
No. It is my contention that anyone running snows at highway speed in warm or hot weather should expect problems and is solely responsible for the result.

But that's exactly the point of this thread; people who are stupid enough to run snow tires in July are exactly the same people who will cry "no one told me not to do that" and want to sue. Remember this is America, where everything is someone ELSE'S fault.

Actually I don't think there's a big problem running winter tires in the summer at reasonable speeds. I've never read any manufacturer warning against it, and have had no problems running half worn winters in the summer, but I don't run 80mph in 90+F either.


I ran winter tires year-round one summer, due to weird financial and personal circumstances. No major problems, but: I knew I was running winter tires and had to allow extra stopping distance, etc.; I never topped 70 mph and usually more like 55-60; and they were S-rated Kelly Snowtrakkers, a studdable (but not studded) older model that was really a true 'snow' tire, rather than most all-round 'winter' tires today.

So it's not ideal for anyone, and would be unwise-to-dangerous in 100-degree heat on an 80-mph limit Southwestern freeway, or any road in the desert region, maybe---but for a careful driver in a temperate climate, with the right kind of winter tire....it's not 'too' bad.

Now you got me thinking, though. If i would have gotten into a fender-bender with a lawyer while I was driving on winter tires in the summer, that could be trouble.

Gotta love it. Hohoho.

 

[PandaBear]

This happens pretty often on large franchise chain (big lawsuit target), and your only way around it is to not tell them which vehicle it is for and bring in loose wheels (tell them you just bough these wheels used and you are mounting your own tires on them).

Or bring them to a small mom and pop tire stores, they tends to mount everything you tell them to.

 

[Sayjac]

Interesting thread. The very first set of tires I ever purchased at Discount Tire were two speed rating levels below the oem H rated tires on an 01 Civic EX. They were Yoko Avid Touring S (then S rated) and was at the suggestion of the DT salesperson. Fwiw, they were a great set of tires, much better than the carppy oem H rated Firestones.

The 01 Civic DX/LX did spec S rated tires but the EX spec'd H rated. What's the difference in the EX vs the LX? 12 more hp, 127 vs 115 for the LX and 100lbs more curb weight for the EX. Imo, I hardly think that those differences make a real world difference in tire performance on the Civic, and I had no concern for safety. Liked them so much, now have another set of now T rated Avid Touring on the same vehicle, after a set of H rated Gen Altimax HP's. And contrary to a previous comment, the Avid Touring S selection has nothing to do with cheaping out on a tire purchase. HP's (and some others) and Avids very close in price.

All that said, I suspect that not purchasing the tires from the shop had as much to do with the denial as the oem speed rating difference. And if legalities were even a small concern, for an install price alone, no incentive for the shop to take any chance.

 

[Garandman]

Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Why does a Nissan Rogue need 120 mph tires on it?

Last I checked nobody brings those to the track.
Because they tune the chassis to the handling characteristics of a particular speed range of tire. The characteristics aren't just the maximum speed rating, or no one would care.

If you bring your wheels and tires to a shop and say "Please mount these" they are happy to do it. Drive in with your car and the rules change.

 

[javacontour]

I've heard this argument. The suspension is tuned to a certain speed rated tire.

OK, what does this mean? How does this work in practice?

It rings hollow to me because I doubt every tire maker tunes their V rated tire to the same sidewall stiffness value as the next.

Not saying it's not true. It just doesn't pass muster at first glance given that there are usually a number of replacement tire options that meet "the requirements" that may or may not have the same handling characteristics as this alleged design tire.

 

[Traction]

For example even the OEM won't spec the exact speed rating and load rating for the same car. 2004 Camry standard and optional.
205/65-15 92T
205/65-15 92H
215/60-16 94V
215/55-17 93V
And the bigger/faster Avalon
205/65-15 92 H
205/60-16 91H
Use your best judgement I guess. Someday we will be required to replace all tires with a
W speed rating with a XL load range in a run-flat, 4 at a time, with 4 new TPMS sensors.

 

[KitaCam]

Originally Posted By: Traction
For example even the OEM won't spec the exact speed rating and load rating for the same car. 2004 Camry standard and optional.
205/65-15 92T
205/65-15 92H
215/60-16 94V
215/55-17 93V
And the bigger/faster Avalon
205/65-15 92 H
205/60-16 91H
Use your best judgement I guess. Someday we will be required to replace all tires with a
W speed rating with a XL load range in a run-flat, 4 at a time, with 4 new TPMS sensors.


I just upsized the Camry from the 15s to 17"ers and made sure when I got tires that they matched the Camry's 17" optional upgrade....215/55-17 93V...so any installer will be ASSured that they will be legal....

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
I plan on going back to this shop right after I get the tires mounted and show them that there's another shop that has common sense, where I will be taking my future business.


You are wasting your time.

There are two separate issues:

1- whether or not replacing the H-rated tires with T-rated tires is safe.

2 - whether the shop gave an accurate assessment in their decision refusing to mount the T-rated tires.

On issue 1 the answer is "yes". In every aspect of the tire that pertains to safety the only difference between an H-rated tire and a T-rated tire is its ability to sustain a speed under a normal load. In North America that means the speed rating is basically irrelevant.

On issue 2 the answer is "yes" because any business owner knows that someone can sue for just about any reason and win. The tort system in the United States is out of control and people win suits all the time for trivial and irrational reasons.



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[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
We are focusing on Speed Rating in this thread, but forgetting that a Speed Rating describes only one aspect of a tire's performance and we cannot ignore the effect the Speed Rating has on other aspects of a tire's performance.

For example; given two tires, appropriately sized for a vehicle, of the same design and type (e.g. P-Rated All-Season) and properly inflated. The difference is, one has a lower Speed Rating than the other.

Now run the car with each of these tires over a severe pot hole or other road hazard of your choice.

Which tire, the one with a higher Speed Rating or the one with the lower Speed Rating, is more likely to survive the encounter?

That's right - the one with the higher Speed Rating.


Not really.

The lower speed rated tire - all things being equal - will have thicker sidewalls and tread. The carcass will be more flexible than the higher speed rated tire.

We get higher speed ratings by making the tire "stiffer" and by keeping the rubber down to a minimum. It's one of the reasons why higher speed rated tires are more prone to sidewall damage from parking and pothole blowouts.





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[CapriRacer]

Sorry, guys. But I have to interrupt the conversation to correct a few things:

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
You are wasting your time.

There are two separate issues:

1- whether or not replacing the H-rated tires with T-rated tires is safe.

2 - whether the shop gave an accurate assessment in their decision refusing to mount the T-rated tires.

On issue 1 the answer is "yes". In every aspect of the tire that pertains to safety the only difference between an H-rated tire and a T-rated tire is its ability to sustain a speed under a normal load. In North America that means the speed rating is basically irrelevant.

On issue 2 the answer is "yes" because any business owner knows that someone can sue for just about any reason and win. The tort system in the United States is out of control and people win suits all the time for trivial and irrational reasons.


I think it is obvious that if a tire has higher speed capability, that means it is less prone to failure and therefore "safer". It would be THAT that an attorney would exploit in a lawsuit - ergo a tire shop that applies a lower speed rating opens himself to legal liability.

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Not really.

The lower speed rated tire - all things being equal - will have thicker sidewalls and tread. The carcass will be more flexible than the higher speed rated tire.

We get higher speed ratings by making the tire "stiffer" and by keeping the rubber down to a minimum. It's one of the reasons why higher speed rated tires are more prone to sidewall damage from parking and pothole blowouts.


In order to make a tire with higher speed capability, the issue is all about the belt growing due to the centrifugal forces (or is that centripetal forces? I always get those mixed up.)

Nevertheless, what makes a T speed rated tire into an H rated tire is the circumferential cap ply. The sidewall plays little role in this.

And to answer the question as to why higher speed tires are more prone to sidewall damage..... They are generally lower aspect ratio. I hope it is obvious that having less sidewall height to absorb an impact is the controlling factor here.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
I think it is obvious that if a tire has higher speed capability, that means it is less prone to failure and therefore "safer".

The only way in which a higher speed rating tire is "safer" than one of the same size and load rating with a lower speed rating is in being able to sustain the rated speed.

Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Nevertheless, what makes a T speed rated tire into an H rated tire is the circumferential cap ply. The sidewall plays little role in this.

In order to construct a tire with a higher speed rating heat buildup is reduced by decreasing flexing both in the sidewall and the tread contact area and dissipation is increased by reducing the mass of the tire itself.

This results in a thinner sidewall than a lower speed rating tired and less tread depth.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
Originally Posted By: CapriRacer
Nevertheless, what makes a T speed rated tire into an H rated tire is the circumferential cap ply. The sidewall plays little role in this.

In order to construct a tire with a higher speed rating heat buildup is reduced by decreasing flexing both in the sidewall and the tread contact area and dissipation is increased by reducing the mass of the tire itself.

This results in a thinner sidewall than a lower speed rating tired and less tread depth.

Oh please....that's simply not true. High speed tires have stiffer construction (generally) to reduce flex...stiffer...not thinner.

You are completely contradicting the guy who's been a tire engineer for decades...with a completely specious set of statements.

Sorry, not buying it.

 

[KitaCam]

The used tire shop where I've bought tires in the past has agreed to mount 17" tires on "new" wheels upgraded from 15s....even though I didn't buy from them...nice guys...

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Sorry, not buying it.


And I am not selling it.

Here's a primer on the design and manufacture of a modern tire:

Pneumatic Tires - NHTSA

The primary enemy of an automotive tire at high speed is heat. The manufacturers attack this by reducing flexing in the tread with a cap or overlay, which also helps control excessive expansion of the tire diameter due to centripetal force, by selecting rubber compounds particularly suited to high speed, by reducing the weight of the tire by thinning the sidewalls and treads, and by careful tread pattern design.

The goal is to reduce flexing, which translates into heat.

In addition increasing inflation pressure for anticipated high speed driving is required:

Tire Tech Information/Air Pressure - Tire Inflation

for the same reason - it reduces tire flexing, which decreases heat generation.

This is why - keeping the size constant - tires built for light trucks are heavier and more resistant to brute trauma than a high speed rated passenger car tire but have a lower speed rating. I think of it as the difference between a plow horse and a thoroughbred.

The reduction in flexing in the tire designed for high speeds does have one other effect - it yields better transient steering response by reducing the slip angle.

Slip Angle

The reduction in slip angle is why moving to a lower profile tire, or increasing inflation pressure, also results in "quicker" handling.

 

[gaijinnv]

Originally Posted By: Wilhelm_D
... increasing inflation pressure, also results in "quicker" handling.


If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as ""quicker" handling," then you are correct. But I think you would be the only one to apply such a definition.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: gaijinnv
If you define increased oversteer and increased understeer as ""quicker" handling," then you are correct.

You can't get both more oversteer and more understeer at the same time by decreasing sidewall stiffness front AND back at the same time.

You can improve transient response by doing so.

 

[Rand]

You can post whatever you want but I'd advise you to read any posts by capriracer carefully.

or you will look foolish. Linking a source is one thing but 30years in the business is different.

also there are many factors at work in tire design. you cant just talk about a few of them and draw a complete conclusion.

The basic information in your post is relatively correct, but some of the conclusion(s)are misleading or just plain wrong.

 

[Wilhelm_D]

Originally Posted By: Rand
You can post whatever you want but I'd advise you to read any posts by capriracer carefully. or you will look foolish. Linking a source is one thing but 30years in the business is different. .... some of the conclusion(s)are misleading or just plain wrong.


So, you believe you can get both more oversteer and more understeer at the same time by changing sidewall stiffness to the same degree front AND back at the same time?

This is a free download:

Handling and How to Get It

It is written in layman's terms. And this:

Air Pressure for Competition Tires

summarizes how we can use tire pressures to increase or decrease understeer and oversteer.



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