San Francisco's Chinese Bridge

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL

You sure did, but we didn't get a whole lot of discussion over it, so I've brought it up again, as per the first part of my post. I think this really needs to be talked about.

Regarding the pricing, of course 400,000,000 is a lot of money. But it is 400,000,000 on a 7,400,000,000 project. However, one must consider the COST of that 400,000,000. Which is buddy making $12/day on his 16/7 work schedule. That job going to what amounts to slave labour instead of Americans working reasonable hours and making livable wages. That is the difference between the first and third world folks. And now we are being sold out at the government level!


I agree. That $400 million "savings" comes at a bigger cost and loss to the US economy. It will be subsidized through increased unemployment, lost taxes etc. Talk about a scheme. And who knows what the quality of the bridge might be and it's real long-term costs. It's a bad thing. What's next, Chinese workers come over and replace other workers in other fields? Maybe chinese Drs., computer programers, the possiblities are endless! And we'll "save" lot's of money except we want ahve any jobs or money. I thinking this decision is intentionally trying to put Americans out of work and out of business.


Then why isn't the steel producers' state come in and pay a subsidies to make up for the difference in bidding?

I'm not against keeping the money in the US, but there are a lot of people already angered by the GM and Chrysler bail out and refuse to buy them and the government policy reflected that. IMO the state and federal government should be subsidizing a cost difference to make not the buyer (California citizens like me) to pay significantly more.

I'll be happy to pay maybe $100M more to companies and workers in some states who try their best to keep jobs in the US, but not the others who are chanting against big government helping to keep jobs in the US. They shouldn't be benefiting from my local sales tax and toll money especially if their deals are worse than oversea.

Either way, my vote isn't counted as a state gov with financial crisis and over budget will place its own priority over other states. This bridge has been 20 years in delay and way over budget that the state gov are scraping every dime to get it open sooner and cheaper.

 

[mechanicx]

I thought someone said California decided to forego federal funding to get around having to use an American contactor. The bottom line is there is something wrong with Americans not being able to pay for and build themselves a bridge or anything else needed to begin with. More outsourcing is not the solution, it is the problem.

That's another thing, international trade is a constitutional power delegated to the Fed. This Chinese construction company is probably an element of the Chinese State. That's what the Confederate States of America did, trade with European countries independently. It doesn't seem right for US states to enter into direct deals with foreign owned industries.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear


Then why isn't the steel producers' state come in and pay a subsidies to make up for the difference in bidding?



That is ludicrous! Why should we be subsidizing the cost between third and first world labour????

The United States is a FIRST WORLD NATION. People who live there should expect to be paid according to that standard. You do NOT cross-shop first and third world labour. It shouldn't be subsidized, because the "choice" shouldn't exist in the first place. Government should not, at any level, have the "choice" to SCREW (and in this case HARD) American tax payers out of working on an American project in an American city, residing in an American state, in which THEY PAY THE TAXES TO BUILD!!

The fact that this undertaking was even allowed to happen speaks VOLUMES as to how screwed up this whole system is.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear

I'll be happy to pay maybe $100M more to companies and workers in some states who try their best to keep jobs in the US, but not the others who are chanting against big government helping to keep jobs in the US. They shouldn't be benefiting from my local sales tax and toll money especially if their deals are worse than oversea.

Exactly in the 80's when GM was producing junk they were drug kicking and screaming into producing products to compete with the Japanese. And in many ways they still haven't got it yet. If it were not for the Japanese we would still be driving cars like the 82 Pontiac Phoenix.

Originally Posted By: opus1

When a Sharpie marker leaking in my briefcase kills as many people as a train-wreck, we'll talk. Straw-man much?

If you can link the occurrence of a train wreck to the ability to fabricate a steel structure where critical welds are radiographed and inspected by Americans I suppose I can ask why one is happy to buy a trillion dollars of Chinese consumer stuff and unhappy buying a structure from the Chinese.

 

[mechanicx]

I agree. If California wants and needs the bridge then they should pay what it costs. Just like if someone wants something that California produces they should pay what it costs, and not try to undermine Cali. Outsourced, foreign production is already basically being subsidized. Domestic production doesn't need to be.

 

[buickman50401]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
Manufacturing here in America is dying a slow painful death..... so are many skilled blue collar jobs in manufacturing and construction.

What about those 'shovel ready jobs' that will lift us up out of this pile of [censored] that were promised by that clown ?

Heard a good one at work re: shovel ready.

"My dog creates more shovel-ready projects in my backyard than Obama has, and at least the dog's projects are useful for something, like fertilizer and compost."

 

[Al]

[/thread]

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: PandaBear


Then why isn't the steel producers' state come in and pay a subsidies to make up for the difference in bidding?



That is ludicrous! Why should we be subsidizing the cost between third and first world labour????

The United States is a FIRST WORLD NATION. People who live there should expect to be paid according to that standard. You do NOT cross-shop first and third world labour. It shouldn't be subsidized, because the "choice" shouldn't exist in the first place. Government should not, at any level, have the "choice" to SCREW (and in this case HARD) American tax payers out of working on an American project in an American city, residing in an American state, in which THEY PAY THE TAXES TO BUILD!!

The fact that this undertaking was even allowed to happen speaks VOLUMES as to how screwed up this whole system is.


I do agree with you, and I do hope to keep the money in the US.

But the point is, the money to build this bridge comes from local level and the bridge if build in the US will be build all the way outside of CA and money made outside of CA, with jobs outside of CA.

This is what we are having with "small government". If the whole US have a standardized tax and expense system rather than a "it is not in the constitution a federal right" argument, these kind of jobs would be in other states of the US as well as someone else will be paying for stuff benefiting California.

Unfortunately, as soon as one starts complaining about a big government system and not wanting to participate, the system falls apart. It is now up to the individual states fighting for themselves.

It is really tough to find money to pay for an already 20 year behind and way over budget bridge, and paying $4 toll really sucks.

 

[Jeepster_nut]

Originally Posted By: mpvue
you can talk about it all you want, but you can't do anything about it.
the govt and big business control everything and will always get their way.

ALWAYS.


+1 yup its the sad truth. All we can do it complain on the internet thesedays.

 

[Cujet]

Yes, this is the very same China that provided the steel for these hangars. The steel that universally failed with a moderate snow load. Well below specification.

 

[PandaBear]

Cujet, it looks like a design failure rather than a steel quality failure.

 

[TurboLuver]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Cujet, it looks like a design failure rather than a steel quality failure.


How do you come to that conclusion?

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Cujet, it looks like a design failure rather than a steel quality failure.


How do you come to that conclusion?


Look at how thin the roof is and how they buckle inward so uniformly.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Originally Posted By: TurboLuver
Originally Posted By: PandaBear
Cujet, it looks like a design failure rather than a steel quality failure.


How do you come to that conclusion?


Look at how thin the roof is and how they buckle inward so uniformly.


The roof didn't break, the HUGE beams that were supposed to support it did.... Likely because they were made of Chinese steel that was 1/3rd the grade it was supposed to be to hold the spec'd weight.

 

[MNgopher]

Frankly I don't think anyone in this post has any credibility in diagnosing the cause of an airplane hanger failure. I see wording like "it looks like" or "likley". And what any of that has to do with the original topic is beyond me, since nobody has definitively cited a source that states the steel in the hanger was Chinese and that issue is somehow related to this issue.

The bridge in question is a classic case of being wrong no matter what choice was made. Take the "inexpensive" option of Chinese steel and bear the wrath of those who think it should be done here. Take the "expensive" option of the work being done here and they are wasting our money when it could have been done cheaper.

The Chinese, whether some will admit it or not, are capable of churning out quality products. They also can churn out junk. If the QA/QC is quality enough and the checks thorough enough, I have no doubt that the end product will meet the specifications as designed.

 

[Al]

Exactly gopher.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: MNgopher
The bridge in question is a classic case of being wrong no matter what choice was made. Take the "inexpensive" option of Chinese steel and bear the wrath of those who think it should be done here. Take the "expensive" option of the work being done here and they are wasting our money when it could have been done cheaper.


I agree wholeheartedly.

Having had to write specs and evaluate tenders where there's a Chinese of Indian candidate lobs, or is likely, you are screwed both ways.


Originally Posted By: MNgopher
The Chinese, whether some will admit it or not, are capable of churning out quality products. They also can churn out junk. If the QA/QC is quality enough and the checks thorough enough, I have no doubt that the end product will meet the specifications as designed.


Nope, not even close.

The amount of fraudulent Q.A. coming out of China and India, reputedly from the major inspection agencies is staggering...especially given the consequences of making a mistake.

 

[Al]

Exactly gopher.

But this was clearly the result of bad Chinese Steel. Justlook how those beams failed.

Oh wait it wasn't

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: MNgopher
The bridge in question is a classic case of being wrong no matter what choice was made. Take the "inexpensive" option of Chinese steel and bear the wrath of those who think it should be done here. Take the "expensive" option of the work being done here and they are wasting our money when it could have been done cheaper.


I agree wholeheartedly.

Having had to write specs and evaluate tenders where there's a Chinese of Indian candidate lobs, or is likely, you are screwed both ways.


Originally Posted By: MNgopher
The Chinese, whether some will admit it or not, are capable of churning out quality products. They also can churn out junk. If the QA/QC is quality enough and the checks thorough enough, I have no doubt that the end product will meet the specifications as designed.


Nope, not even close.

The amount of fraudulent Q.A. coming out of China and India, reputedly from the major inspection agencies is staggering...especially given the consequences of making a mistake.


That's why Caltran is sending 250 some people over there instead of relying on their QA.

I have some mix feeling about this. Wanting the jobs to be in the US but don't want "Da Man" to rip us toll and tax payers off another $400M.

 

[Shannow]

Yep,
I know some metallurgists who have been sent to China and Korea for months at a time (Interestingly one on bridge fabrication). Even the most basic stuff like pre-weld heating to prevent post weld cracking had to be watched continuously.