S65 M3 engine

[Gokhan]

Here is what it said exactly:

BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil is recommended for scheduled engine oil changes.
BMW Genuine Oil SAE 5w30 Synthetic Oil*
* Does not apply to M vehicles - see below for further information.
BMW part number 07 51 0 017 866 - 12 x 1 qt case
BMW part number 07 510 038 678 - 24 x 1qt Enviropack
BMW part number 07 51 0 017 954 - 55 gallon drum


*The following is the only recommended and approved synthetic oil for BMW M (Motorsport) vehicles in the US market with gasoline engines, at the present time.
BMW Long-life rating LL-01 Synthetic Oils for BMW M vehicles equipped with S54, S62, S65 or S85 engines
Castrol EDGE Professional TWS Motorsport SAE 10W-60 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 009 420
or
Castrol EDGE Professional OE 5W30 Synthetic Engine Oil
BMW part number 07 51 0 037 195

Link

 

[d00df00d]

That text is from 5 year old forum threads that cite a page that hasn't existed on BMW's website for most of those years, and of which the most recent available version agrees with literally all other available official guidance on this engine, which says basically what I've spelled out. I don't see how that supports the argument that a mechanical issue with unknown causes should license running an oil that is three KV100 grades lower than spec.

 

[edyvw]

Quote
By thin or thick, I'm strictly referring to the HTHSV in this context, which is the viscosity that matters for the bearings.

You are really unfamiliar with this discussion.
1. There is really no agreement as why rod bearings are failing.
2. Those who think oil is culprit are focused on cold starts and high rpms, not when oil reaches operating temperature. The argument is that people step hard on it immediately when engine is cold.
3. LL01W30 or W40 specification is used in later, turbo M engines. This engine is ONLY recommended to use 10W60.

I think improvement is that you did not say to use TGMO 0W20.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Many people reported dramatically less wear in UOAs with 0W-40 than with 10W-60 in BMW forums.
That's hardly definitive,though.
If I had one of these S65 engines with the improper bearing geometry (Was it too tight thrust clearance?), I would stay away from 10W-60 and use 0W-40 or thinner, as the wear and failure was caused by oil starvation because of the too tight clearance. Otherwise, 10W-60 is fine and you can push that oil to extreme-temperature limits without thinning too much.
What is thinner than 0W, I am very interested in hearing that?

Originally Posted by edyvw
Quote
By thin or thick, I'm strictly referring to the HTHSV in this context, which is the viscosity that matters for the bearings.
You are really unfamiliar with this discussion.
1. There is really no agreement as why rod bearings are failing.
2. Those who think oil is culprit are focused on cold starts and high rpms, not when oil reaches operating temperature. The argument is that people step hard on it immediately when engine is cold.
3. LL01W30 or W40 specification is used in later, turbo M engines. This engine is ONLY recommended to use 10W60.

I think improvement is that you did not say to use TGMO 0W20.

The cold-engine viscosity is not determined by the x in xW-y. It's determined by the y in xW-y and viscosity index. x in xW-y determines the crankability (CCS) and pumpability (MRV) at very low temperatures, not the operational low-shear or high-shear viscosity at most temperatures.

For example:

Mobil 1 15W-50 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 18.0, 125, and 342 cSt, respectively.
Castrol 10W-60 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 22.7, 160, and 436 cSt, respectively.
Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 12.9, 70.8, and 170 cSt, respectively.
TGMO 0W-20 (© 2015 reformulation) KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 8.4, 35.2, and 72.8 cSt, respectively.

As you see, a 15W-xx can be thinner than a 10W-xx when cold. a 0W-xx can be several times thinner than another 0W-xx when cold.

No, I didn't recommend TGMO, which is a fairly thin oil. Nevertheless, I don't think it will do any worse if not better in this poorly designed engine than the recommended 10W-60.

Note that the bearings and oil pressure are both governed by the high-shear, not kinematic, viscosity, regardless of the temperature.

So, some are saying that the wear happens because people don't follow the old "Do not race a cold engine" caution. Perhaps, but then this caution applies to all oils and engines. Also, psychologically, this conjecture is buried in their 10W-60 use (We're using a very thick oil and we should be easy on the pedal when the engine is cold.)

 

[d00df00d]

The cold engine idea is one of many plausible hypotheses about the causes of rod bearing wear. It hasn't been evaluated, much less ruled out. So, while we can't say it's "the problem", we also can't say anything else is yet.

Yes, "do not race a cold engine" applies to all oils and engines. Which is exactly why one should be skeptical of the idea that a thinner oil would address this problem in this engine.

Even if thinner oil did help the cold start issue, there's no telling whether it might introduce other problems. In comparison to an engine oil developed specifically for this family of engines, which is also the only oil on the planet that the manufacturer is willing to endorse, anything else is a complete unknown.

Let's also not forget the baseline rule that if there's a problem with a modern engine, it's FAR more likely to be primarily related to design, manufacturing, or tune, with oil choice as a marginal factor at most.

 

[330indy]

Use Redline.
Robust oil!
Mix 5w50 and 10w60.....

 

[edyvw]

Quote

The cold-engine viscosity is not determined by the x in xW-y. It's determined by the y in xW-y and viscosity index. x in xW-y determines the crankability (CCS) and pumpability (MRV) at very low temperatures, not the operational low-shear or high-shear viscosity at most temperatures.

For example:

Mobil 1 15W-50 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 18.0, 125, and 342 cSt, respectively.
Castrol 10W-60 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 22.7, 160, and 436 cSt, respectively.
Mobil 1 FS 0W-40 KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 12.9, 70.8, and 170 cSt, respectively.
TGMO 0W-20 (© 2015 reformulation) KV100, KV40, and KV20 = 8.4, 35.2, and 72.8 cSt, respectively.

As you see, a 15W-xx can be thinner than a 10W-xx when cold. a 0W-xx can be several times thinner than another 0W-xx when cold.

No, I didn't recommend TGMO, which is a fairly thin oil. Nevertheless, I don't think it will do any worse if not better in this poorly designed engine than the recommended 10W-60.

Note that the bearings and oil pressure are both governed by the high-shear, not kinematic, viscosity, regardless of the temperature.

So, some are saying that the wear happens because people don't follow the old "Do not race a cold engine" caution. Perhaps, but then this caution applies to all oils and engines. Also, psychologically, this conjecture is buried in their 10W-60 use (We're using a very thick oil and we should be easy on the pedal when the engine is cold.)

You seriously do not have any idea that people here know that. I do not understand point of your post. What you trying to say? That you search internet good?
Regardless whether oil is 0W or 10W, cold engine is cold engine, and according to some theory that is culprit. Only recommended oil is 10W60. Let's say there is good reason for that. You will not solve this puzzle by reading stuff on internet which in many cases is inaccurate.
And TGMO? Poorly designed engine? Is that why Toyota buys engines from BMW? Because they cannot design engine?
Stick to Corolla.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by d00df00d
The cold engine idea is one of many plausible hypotheses about the causes of rod bearing wear. It hasn't been evaluated, much less ruled out. So, while we can't say it's "the problem", we also can't say anything else is yet.

Yes, "do not race a cold engine" applies to all oils and engines. Which is exactly why one should be skeptical of the idea that a thinner oil would address this problem in this engine.

Even if thinner oil did help the cold start issue, there's no telling whether it might introduce other problems. In comparison to an engine oil developed specifically for this family of engines, which is also the only oil on the planet that the manufacturer is willing to endorse, anything else is a complete unknown.

Let's also not forget the baseline rule that if there's a problem with a modern engine, it's FAR more likely to be primarily related to design, manufacturing, or tune, with oil choice as a marginal factor at most.

Pretty much comes down to that.
I highly doubt culprit will ever be found. Some S65 will have long life, most will unfortunately die bcs their 3rd owner will not have money for AGM battery.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
You seriously do not have any idea that people here know that.
Your previous rhetorical question implied that you didn't:
Originally Posted by edyvw
What is thinner than 0W, I am very interested in hearing that?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
You seriously do not have any idea that people here know that.
Your previous rhetorical question implied that you didn't:
Originally Posted by edyvw
What is thinner than 0W, I am very interested in hearing that?

It did imply to you because you are obsessed with web data. here is outside world you know.
But, some would say, including me that some people tend to start cars below 40c, just sayin.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
You seriously do not have any idea that people here know that.
Your previous rhetorical question implied that you didn't:
Originally Posted by edyvw
What is thinner than 0W, I am very interested in hearing that?
It did imply to you because you are obsessed with web data. here is outside world you know.
But, some would say, including me that some people tend to start cars below 40c, just sayin.

No... You confused cold engine with extreme-cold start and were being sarcastic despite making a false claim. I'm sure it's not because you didn't know but you were being argumentative and didn't give it a thought.

None of us have the perfect knowledge. You were also mistakenly asserting that all MB and VW oils have LSPI and IVD protection. In fact, none of them have LSPI protection and only the VW 504.00 has IVD protection.

Web data? Where else do you get the PDS and MSDS data? Outside world? Do you belong to the Colorado Springs VW club?

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by edyvw
You seriously do not have any idea that people here know that.
Your previous rhetorical question implied that you didn't:
Originally Posted by edyvw
What is thinner than 0W, I am very interested in hearing that?
It did imply to you because you are obsessed with web data. here is outside world you know.
But, some would say, including me that some people tend to start cars below 40c, just sayin.

No... You confused cold engine with extreme-cold start and were being sarcastic despite making a false claim. I'm sure it's not because you didn't know but you were being argumentative and didn't give it a thought.

None of us have the perfect knowledge. You were also mistakenly asserting that all MB and VW oils have LSPI and IVD protection. In fact, none of them have LSPI protection and only the VW 504.00 has IVD protection.

Web data? Where else do you get the PDS and MSDS data? Outside world? Do you belong to the Colorado Springs VW club?

What is extreme cold? 40c is considered extreme heat by the way.
But, I guess you are arguing that 15W50 is thinner than 0W40 FS at 0c? Good to know. 0c by the way is not considered extreme weather condition.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted by d00df00d

to BITOG!

I just got a car with this engine, myself. Been diving into this issue as well.

Conrod bearing issues has been well known long enough to cause distress and panic.

Oil or user problem that cause failure?

Unknown at this point.

Another hypothesis is that the clearances are too tight. Also unknown.

I suspect it's a combination of many things and not easily pinned down. Either way, it's probably best to just assume that rod bearings are a maintenance item every 60k-100k miles, and use oil analysis regularly to try to get some advance warning of excess wear.

Rod bearings shouldn't be a maintenance item.
My suggestion for fixing the BMW M-engine rod bearing problem is to replace them with GM LS engine bearings, and to include the rest of the engine while you are doing it.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted by A_Harman
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Either way, it's probably best to just assume that rod bearings are a maintenance item every 60k-100k miles
Rod bearings shouldn't be a maintenance item.
My suggestion for fixing the BMW M-engine rod bearing problem is to replace them with GM LS engine bearings, and to include the rest of the engine while you are doing it.

 

[d00df00d]

Reminds me of those folks at auto shows who stand around the Ferrari booth just to pontificate about how they could make their 2003 Golf go just as fast with bolt-ons for a fraction of the money, and wouldn't that be better because it wouldn't need all that expensive Ferrari maintenance...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted by d00df00d
Reminds me of those folks at auto shows who stand around the Ferrari booth just to pontificate about how they could make their 2003 Golf go just as fast with bolt-ons for a fraction of the money, and wouldn't that be better because it wouldn't need all that expensive Ferrari maintenance...



While my enthusiast's heart goes out to anyone who feels inhibited regarding their S85's bearings or other expensive parts, I must agree that in my world rod bearings and other rotating assembly parts are NOT maintenance items!


I have seat time at Sebring in one and they are fun as can be on the track, the engine is even more impressive at higher speeds than in the lower gears.


But everyone has to make their choice and live with it. Put the dough aside or start accumulating the parts needed.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted by SteveSRT8
Originally Posted by d00df00d
Reminds me of those folks at auto shows who stand around the Ferrari booth just to pontificate about how they could make their 2003 Golf go just as fast with bolt-ons for a fraction of the money, and wouldn't that be better because it wouldn't need all that expensive Ferrari maintenance...



While my enthusiast's heart goes out to anyone who feels inhibited regarding their S85's bearings or other expensive parts, I must agree that in my world rod bearings and other rotating assembly parts are NOT maintenance items!

Sounds like the world in which if a car engine bigger than 2 liters comes anywhere near 8400 RPM, it's because someone money-shifted it. That's the point.

 

[edyvw]

Quote
Rod bearings shouldn't be a maintenance item.
My suggestion for fixing the BMW M-engine rod bearing problem is to replace them with GM LS engine bearings, and to include the rest of the engine while you are doing it.

Engine from company that bankrupt because it was making good quality products?

 

[oghl]

[/quote]
Engine from company that bankrupt because it was making good quality products? [/quote]

They are doing poorly for other reasons. I believe the LS V8 is a time tested design. Not one of the most advanced, but one of the most proven.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Probably physically smaller and lighter in the all aluminum models. Certainly capable of plenty of HP.


There's a reason that newest Vette has the lowest CG of any car ever measured at C&D. And that engine generally is quite robust...