Royal Wedding - now watching
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Originally Posted By: Ducked
The original post was about greatest relative sacrifice.
Stalin didn't make any sacrifice sending 10's of millions to their death. They were expendable.
Back on track. We can criticize the "Royal" culture but we don't really internalize what it means to the Brits. So we will go on criticizing. And again our Washington Royals bare some deep criticism.
The original post was about greatest relative sacrifice.
Stalin didn't make any sacrifice sending 10's of millions to their death. They were expendable.
Back on track. We can criticize the "Royal" culture but we don't really internalize what it means to the Brits. So we will go on criticizing. And again our Washington Royals bare some deep criticism.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I really do get it that so many of you (especially you Yanks) don't get royalty & The Crown and all it means, so I'll try and explain...
Britain is an old country. We have seen & endured a lot. We have throughout our history been involved in conflict and faced at times, ridiculously overwhelming odds. We saw off the Spanish Armada when the Spanish Empire was at its peak. We fended off Napoleon when he had the whole of Europe subjugated. We beat The Kaiser when logic said we should have lost and repeated the trick twenty years later with Hitler. We never got down in the dirt to settle things but had it come to blows, I reckon ALONE, we could have could even have put up a decent show against Ivan! (at MASSIVE cost to ourselves obvs).
How do we do this? Well it's partly that we put a lot of effort into cultivating powerful friends (like Portugal, the Dutch, the Prussians, France, the US and the Sovs). We also stubbornly (sometimes insanely) refuse to be beat and part of this happens because we can collectively, as a nation, coalesce around one thing...The Crown...because in embodies what we all are & have in common.
And if you think this is all just sentimental claptrap, try to imagine the USA facing, for the first time in its short history, a genuinely scary threat from an enemy that is bigger, younger and way better armed than you. Who are you going to coalesce around? Your recent heads of state, George W, Obama & Trumpski are hugely divisive figures. In such circumstances, having a neutral monarch whose very purpose is to exemplify what we all share in common ain't such a bad idea!
Now think on...
If it wasn't for us Yanks you would be typing your response in German.
I really do get it that so many of you (especially you Yanks) don't get royalty & The Crown and all it means, so I'll try and explain...
Britain is an old country. We have seen & endured a lot. We have throughout our history been involved in conflict and faced at times, ridiculously overwhelming odds. We saw off the Spanish Armada when the Spanish Empire was at its peak. We fended off Napoleon when he had the whole of Europe subjugated. We beat The Kaiser when logic said we should have lost and repeated the trick twenty years later with Hitler. We never got down in the dirt to settle things but had it come to blows, I reckon ALONE, we could have could even have put up a decent show against Ivan! (at MASSIVE cost to ourselves obvs).
How do we do this? Well it's partly that we put a lot of effort into cultivating powerful friends (like Portugal, the Dutch, the Prussians, France, the US and the Sovs). We also stubbornly (sometimes insanely) refuse to be beat and part of this happens because we can collectively, as a nation, coalesce around one thing...The Crown...because in embodies what we all are & have in common.
And if you think this is all just sentimental claptrap, try to imagine the USA facing, for the first time in its short history, a genuinely scary threat from an enemy that is bigger, younger and way better armed than you. Who are you going to coalesce around? Your recent heads of state, George W, Obama & Trumpski are hugely divisive figures. In such circumstances, having a neutral monarch whose very purpose is to exemplify what we all share in common ain't such a bad idea!
Now think on...
If it wasn't for us Yanks you would be typing your response in German.
I feel compelled to point this out:
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Good One
TIC TOCK HERE COMES THE LOCK
Originally Posted By: Al
Originally Posted By: Ducked
The original post was about greatest relative sacrifice.
Stalin didn't make any sacrifice sending 10's of millions to their death. They were expendable.
And your point is...er... Stalin wasn't a very nice man? Never trust a big moustache? Stalin was a wartime leader?
You could make the same statement about any wartime leader, (with some adjustment of the numbers) but saying it in that way seems to imply that Russian sacrifice somehow doesn't "count".
Perhaps because they were...um...not Americans?
Originally Posted By: Al
You are forgetting about Japan. Not only did we did most of the heavy lifting there(yes-Australia did their share)....
Not very likely, since I pass WW2 Japanese airfield and beach defenses every day.
According to this site
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm
US K and MIA against the Japanese were roughly 110,000 (very few civilian casualties).
Chinese K and MIA are estimated to be about 4,000,000, with about 18,000,000 civilian deaths.
I'm unclear if this is just for the 1941-45 period, or 1937-45. Dwarfs the rest either way.
But perhaps they dont "count" anyway?
Originally Posted By: Ducked
The original post was about greatest relative sacrifice.
Stalin didn't make any sacrifice sending 10's of millions to their death. They were expendable.
And your point is...er... Stalin wasn't a very nice man? Never trust a big moustache? Stalin was a wartime leader?
You could make the same statement about any wartime leader, (with some adjustment of the numbers) but saying it in that way seems to imply that Russian sacrifice somehow doesn't "count".
Perhaps because they were...um...not Americans?
Originally Posted By: Al
You are forgetting about Japan. Not only did we did most of the heavy lifting there(yes-Australia did their share)....
Not very likely, since I pass WW2 Japanese airfield and beach defenses every day.
According to this site
http://www.pwencycl.kgbudge.com/C/a/Casualties.htm
US K and MIA against the Japanese were roughly 110,000 (very few civilian casualties).
Chinese K and MIA are estimated to be about 4,000,000, with about 18,000,000 civilian deaths.
I'm unclear if this is just for the 1941-45 period, or 1937-45. Dwarfs the rest either way.
But perhaps they dont "count" anyway?
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Originally Posted By: marine65
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I really do get it that so many of you (especially you Yanks) don't get royalty & The Crown and all it means, so I'll try and explain...
Britain is an old country. We have seen & endured a lot. We have throughout our history been involved in conflict and faced at times, ridiculously overwhelming odds. We saw off the Spanish Armada when the Spanish Empire was at its peak. We fended off Napoleon when he had the whole of Europe subjugated. We beat The Kaiser when logic said we should have lost and repeated the trick twenty years later with Hitler. We never got down in the dirt to settle things but had it come to blows, I reckon ALONE, we could have could even have put up a decent show against Ivan! (at MASSIVE cost to ourselves obvs).
How do we do this? Well it's partly that we put a lot of effort into cultivating powerful friends (like Portugal, the Dutch, the Prussians, France, the US and the Sovs). We also stubbornly (sometimes insanely) refuse to be beat and part of this happens because we can collectively, as a nation, coalesce around one thing...The Crown...because in embodies what we all are & have in common.
And if you think this is all just sentimental claptrap, try to imagine the USA facing, for the first time in its short history, a genuinely scary threat from an enemy that is bigger, younger and way better armed than you. Who are you going to coalesce around? Your recent heads of state, George W, Obama & Trumpski are hugely divisive figures. In such circumstances, having a neutral monarch whose very purpose is to exemplify what we all share in common ain't such a bad idea!
Now think on...
If it wasn't for us Yanks you would be typing your response in German.
And if it wasn't for the Brits, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Indians, Norwegians, Danes, Poles, Chinese and of course, THE RUSSIANS, you would probably now be fluent in both German AND Japanese!
Think about it (yes, I know it's hard but try). Had Britain crumbled in 1940 after the fall of France, the whole of Western Europe would have been under Nazi control. The entirety of their war machine would have been turned eastwards earlier and in this scenario, a woefully unprepared USSR could easily have folded. So now they (and the Japanese) control the whole of Europe, Asia & Africa. They now have resources (particularly oil), five modern battle fleets, military tech and advanced tech (remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
So how long do you that genuinely think you could have survived being the meat in the sandwich then??? Fortunately for the world, US leaders realised in time what was on the cards and threw their lot in with everyone else who was opposing Fascist militarism. You were one of many. Try to remember that.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
I really do get it that so many of you (especially you Yanks) don't get royalty & The Crown and all it means, so I'll try and explain...
Britain is an old country. We have seen & endured a lot. We have throughout our history been involved in conflict and faced at times, ridiculously overwhelming odds. We saw off the Spanish Armada when the Spanish Empire was at its peak. We fended off Napoleon when he had the whole of Europe subjugated. We beat The Kaiser when logic said we should have lost and repeated the trick twenty years later with Hitler. We never got down in the dirt to settle things but had it come to blows, I reckon ALONE, we could have could even have put up a decent show against Ivan! (at MASSIVE cost to ourselves obvs).
How do we do this? Well it's partly that we put a lot of effort into cultivating powerful friends (like Portugal, the Dutch, the Prussians, France, the US and the Sovs). We also stubbornly (sometimes insanely) refuse to be beat and part of this happens because we can collectively, as a nation, coalesce around one thing...The Crown...because in embodies what we all are & have in common.
And if you think this is all just sentimental claptrap, try to imagine the USA facing, for the first time in its short history, a genuinely scary threat from an enemy that is bigger, younger and way better armed than you. Who are you going to coalesce around? Your recent heads of state, George W, Obama & Trumpski are hugely divisive figures. In such circumstances, having a neutral monarch whose very purpose is to exemplify what we all share in common ain't such a bad idea!
Now think on...
If it wasn't for us Yanks you would be typing your response in German.
And if it wasn't for the Brits, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Indians, Norwegians, Danes, Poles, Chinese and of course, THE RUSSIANS, you would probably now be fluent in both German AND Japanese!
Think about it (yes, I know it's hard but try). Had Britain crumbled in 1940 after the fall of France, the whole of Western Europe would have been under Nazi control. The entirety of their war machine would have been turned eastwards earlier and in this scenario, a woefully unprepared USSR could easily have folded. So now they (and the Japanese) control the whole of Europe, Asia & Africa. They now have resources (particularly oil), five modern battle fleets, military tech and advanced tech (remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
So how long do you that genuinely think you could have survived being the meat in the sandwich then??? Fortunately for the world, US leaders realised in time what was on the cards and threw their lot in with everyone else who was opposing Fascist militarism. You were one of many. Try to remember that.
5 modern battle fleets? Are you suggesting Britain would have allowed their fleet to be captured intact and used against Germany's enemies? I know enough about our friends across the water they would never allow that to happen. In fact, the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys are the only ones I am aware of in WWII that did that. I believe they were a bit upset when the RN removed most of their capital ships from the active roster.
More than likely, if GB fell, it would have been tragic, but had little effect on the US. We would no longer have been supporting them as the arsenal of democracy, so when the Japanese attacked, Hitler would not have been so stupid as to declare war against the US. We would have defeated Japan in short order along with our Australian and New Zealand allies. Hitler would have died of a drug overdose or other medical reason, maybe after defeating Stalin so eastern Europe wouldn't have had the mass murders and enslavement by the Soviets. And without Hitler, the Germans would have evolved into a kinder, gentler people sending over complicated performance cars to the rest of the world. Or, more likely, both Japan and Germany would have been bogged down in China and Russia respectively until they ran out of manpower. Or, I could just say it's silly trying to say what would have happened, if....
I think the Brit and Yank alliance in WWII brought out the best in both of us. Maybe we should recognize that and give this silly competition a rest.
More than likely, if GB fell, it would have been tragic, but had little effect on the US. We would no longer have been supporting them as the arsenal of democracy, so when the Japanese attacked, Hitler would not have been so stupid as to declare war against the US. We would have defeated Japan in short order along with our Australian and New Zealand allies. Hitler would have died of a drug overdose or other medical reason, maybe after defeating Stalin so eastern Europe wouldn't have had the mass murders and enslavement by the Soviets. And without Hitler, the Germans would have evolved into a kinder, gentler people sending over complicated performance cars to the rest of the world. Or, more likely, both Japan and Germany would have been bogged down in China and Russia respectively until they ran out of manpower. Or, I could just say it's silly trying to say what would have happened, if....
I think the Brit and Yank alliance in WWII brought out the best in both of us. Maybe we should recognize that and give this silly competition a rest.
Originally Posted By: Ducked
And your point is...er... Stalin wasn't a very nice man? N but saying it in that way seems to imply that Russian sacrifice somehow doesn't "count".
Perhaps because they were...um...not Americans?
Originally Posted By: Al
You are forgetting about Japan. Not only did we did most of the heavy lifting there(yes-Australia did their share)....
Chinese K and MIA are estimated to be about 4,000,000, with about 18,000,000 civilian deaths.
I'm unclear if this is just for the 1941-45 period, or 1937-45. Dwarfs the rest either way.
But perhaps they dont "count" anyway?
Being from Tiawan, I can excuse that English may be a second language, you have no knowledge of American contributions, or possibly don't want to venture outside of your own opinions.
I merely pointed out that Stalin didn't make any sacrifices. Yes the country as a whole did but they would not hasve survived without our technology and production. And btw they turned on Russia bc the Brits managed to defeat the Germans in part bc of our Hi-Test Av-Gas which allowed them to fly and the enhanced performance make their aircraft superior to the German FW's
When did I say the Chinese did not make huge sacrifices?
But again..the US supplied 50% of all war material (weapons, food, fuel,etc)..including the Axis
countries. Tiawan contributed a lot, they supplied land and labor for the Japanese. OK..you can go back to fantasy land again.
And your point is...er... Stalin wasn't a very nice man? N but saying it in that way seems to imply that Russian sacrifice somehow doesn't "count".
Perhaps because they were...um...not Americans?
Originally Posted By: Al
You are forgetting about Japan. Not only did we did most of the heavy lifting there(yes-Australia did their share)....
Chinese K and MIA are estimated to be about 4,000,000, with about 18,000,000 civilian deaths.
I'm unclear if this is just for the 1941-45 period, or 1937-45. Dwarfs the rest either way.
But perhaps they dont "count" anyway?
Being from Tiawan, I can excuse that English may be a second language, you have no knowledge of American contributions, or possibly don't want to venture outside of your own opinions.
I merely pointed out that Stalin didn't make any sacrifices. Yes the country as a whole did but they would not hasve survived without our technology and production. And btw they turned on Russia bc the Brits managed to defeat the Germans in part bc of our Hi-Test Av-Gas which allowed them to fly and the enhanced performance make their aircraft superior to the German FW's
When did I say the Chinese did not make huge sacrifices?
But again..the US supplied 50% of all war material (weapons, food, fuel,etc)..including the Axis
countries. Tiawan contributed a lot, they supplied land and labor for the Japanese. OK..you can go back to fantasy land again.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
(remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
That's some genuine xenophobic hate..
Remember that those "dimwit laggards" at Los Alamos, developed The Bomb before anyone else. Of course spies saw to it that the Soviet Union received critical data which eventually allowed them to build their copy of The Bomb.
(remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
That's some genuine xenophobic hate..
Remember that those "dimwit laggards" at Los Alamos, developed The Bomb before anyone else. Of course spies saw to it that the Soviet Union received critical data which eventually allowed them to build their copy of The Bomb.
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Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
Wow.I guess Europe has adopted revisionist heistory practiced by the Soviets for 100 years.
BTW the German's best Nuclear Scientist (Heisenberg)...was working on a German bomb,but didn't seem to understand it could not be made smaller than an a hundred ton+ Reactor vessel + moderator...
The U.S was concerned in late 43 and was prepared to kill him. But fortunately they discovered the Germans were on the wrong (impossible) path to the bomb.
remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
Wow.I guess Europe has adopted revisionist heistory practiced by the Soviets for 100 years.
BTW the German's best Nuclear Scientist (Heisenberg)...was working on a German bomb,but didn't seem to understand it could not be made smaller than an a hundred ton+ Reactor vessel + moderator...
The U.S was concerned in late 43 and was prepared to kill him. But fortunately they discovered the Germans were on the wrong (impossible) path to the bomb.
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
(remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
That's some genuine xenophobic hate..
Remember that those "dimwit laggards" at Los Alamos, developed The Bomb before anyone else. Of course spies saw to it that the Soviet Union received critical data which eventually allowed them to build their copy of The Bomb.
I think you're confusing xenophobic hate with historical fact.
In 1940, the US had written off The Bomb as a practical proposition (too big, required way too much uranium & would be impossible to lift with a contemporary aircraft). The US was not alone in holding this view. Rutherford thought the idea was moonshine!
However in 1940, two refugee scientists (one German, one Austrian) were working at Birmingham University. Peierls & Frisch correctly sussed out that everyone was wrong & that all you actually needed to get critical mass & make a whopping great atomic bang was a couple of kilos of Uranium 235. Had GB gone down the tubes after France, this key piece of info wouldn't have got through to the US.
The great irony was that even when the discovery was passed over (along with other great swathes of Tube Alloys R&D) it sat ignored in an American academic's safe. It wasn't until James Chadwick (he who discovered the neutron) went over to the US to find out why nothing was happening, that The Manhattan Project got truly kicked into action.
So I stand by my comments which was in essence, had we had caved in 1940, the US wouldn't have been in pole position to develop The Bomb & the Germans (& Japanese who also had a bomb project in the works) would very likely have beaten you to the punch.
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
(remember at this stage, the US was the dimwit laggard in the quest for The Bomb).
That's some genuine xenophobic hate..
Remember that those "dimwit laggards" at Los Alamos, developed The Bomb before anyone else. Of course spies saw to it that the Soviet Union received critical data which eventually allowed them to build their copy of The Bomb.
I think you're confusing xenophobic hate with historical fact.
In 1940, the US had written off The Bomb as a practical proposition (too big, required way too much uranium & would be impossible to lift with a contemporary aircraft). The US was not alone in holding this view. Rutherford thought the idea was moonshine!
However in 1940, two refugee scientists (one German, one Austrian) were working at Birmingham University. Peierls & Frisch correctly sussed out that everyone was wrong & that all you actually needed to get critical mass & make a whopping great atomic bang was a couple of kilos of Uranium 235. Had GB gone down the tubes after France, this key piece of info wouldn't have got through to the US.
The great irony was that even when the discovery was passed over (along with other great swathes of Tube Alloys R&D) it sat ignored in an American academic's safe. It wasn't until James Chadwick (he who discovered the neutron) went over to the US to find out why nothing was happening, that The Manhattan Project got truly kicked into action.
So I stand by my comments which was in essence, had we had caved in 1940, the US wouldn't have been in pole position to develop The Bomb & the Germans (& Japanese who also had a bomb project in the works) would very likely have beaten you to the punch.
Going to lock this as it has nothing to do with the wedding.
Bill
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