I have run synthetic for years. I will continue to in my motorcycle, because it is air cooled and oil temps can get high. But Im starting to rethink using synthetic in my car. Im beginning to belive it isnt that necessary in a water cooled engine in a moderate climate. It isnt that I am too cheap to buy it. Just cant see wasting money. Whats your take?
Rethinking Use of Synthetic - Opinions?
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Well, on my camry I had run 100% synthetic since new but I switched to dino about a year ago due to a head gasket oil leak, just the cost of synthetic is not worth it on a leaker. Now, my sons, next UOA will determine the future of synthetic in his, so far his engine just beats the oil up and at 5000 miles the wear metals are way too high and cannot seem to be controlled after many years of trying with synthetic. So unless my switch to a different synthetic oi this current fill does the trick I am switching to dino and 3000 mile OCI on his as well. But on others with 7500 mile plus OCI and one a year I will stay with synthetic. So, guess it depends on your situation!
I redid my math above on my most recent changes
with dino and syn.
Dino for me at 5000mi is $1 - $2 per 1000.
Syn if I went 10000mi is $2.50 and $5 for 5000mi.
I actually agree with Hokie and Blazer above that if you go 10,000mi with syn you get the extra protection for close to the same price. But when I look at syn OCIs in the UOA's section 90% of syn users go 5000 and I don't see an extra $3-4 per 1000 miles of value for syn over dino.
Market pricing might raise dino prices and narrow the difference with high oil prices. But nuts to having the US adopt Canada and Europe petro/ gas and oil taxes to force me to use one or the other.
with dino and syn.
Dino for me at 5000mi is $1 - $2 per 1000.
Syn if I went 10000mi is $2.50 and $5 for 5000mi.
I actually agree with Hokie and Blazer above that if you go 10,000mi with syn you get the extra protection for close to the same price. But when I look at syn OCIs in the UOA's section 90% of syn users go 5000 and I don't see an extra $3-4 per 1000 miles of value for syn over dino.
Market pricing might raise dino prices and narrow the difference with high oil prices. But nuts to having the US adopt Canada and Europe petro/ gas and oil taxes to force me to use one or the other.
I am staying with synthetic for once a year OCI: 12k-15k miles for LS400, 12k-13k miles for E430 and 6-7k miles for S2000.
HokieRich,
If you are still in Blacksburg, you may also want to consider the effects of over-mountain driving (extream load) and very short trips in the winter (not getting to normal operating temp). I am begining to appreciate the rather low viscosity that you can get from synthetics.
On the other hand, if you don't like wasting money, then you really should consider a good mineral oil. It is very difficult to beat Havoline for example.
If you are still in Blacksburg, you may also want to consider the effects of over-mountain driving (extream load) and very short trips in the winter (not getting to normal operating temp). I am begining to appreciate the rather low viscosity that you can get from synthetics.
On the other hand, if you don't like wasting money, then you really should consider a good mineral oil. It is very difficult to beat Havoline for example.
Just buy the synthetics when its on sale and save it until needed.
5 qts of Mobil 1 at $5 a qt is $25, and if used over 5k miles ends up being half a penny a mile, if used for 7.5k miles it ends up being a third of a penny a mile.
$500 tires that last 50k miles is a penny a mile.
A $20k car that lasts 200k miles is 10 cents a mile, if lasts 250k miles it's 8 cents a mile, and if it lasts 300k miles it's 6 and 2/3rds cents a mile.
Assuming a $1 a qt for dino you'll spend an extra $1k on oil at 250k miles. If you get an extra 50k miles, say from 250k to 300k miles, you save over $3k on just vehicle cost per mile at 250k miles.
Using any technique to extend maintenance that ends up costing more to implement is a bet that it will pay off, so the question is how good is the bet. These days it's expensive, obscene really, to replace vehicles, so there' a lot of potential upside if you can get vehicles to last longer.
$500 tires that last 50k miles is a penny a mile.
A $20k car that lasts 200k miles is 10 cents a mile, if lasts 250k miles it's 8 cents a mile, and if it lasts 300k miles it's 6 and 2/3rds cents a mile.
Assuming a $1 a qt for dino you'll spend an extra $1k on oil at 250k miles. If you get an extra 50k miles, say from 250k to 300k miles, you save over $3k on just vehicle cost per mile at 250k miles.
Using any technique to extend maintenance that ends up costing more to implement is a bet that it will pay off, so the question is how good is the bet. These days it's expensive, obscene really, to replace vehicles, so there' a lot of potential upside if you can get vehicles to last longer.
This really isn't a valid point.
I've never driven a vehicle requiring any of the Euro spec motor oils and don't closely follow the current ACEA sequence specifications.
But I do know that the longer Euro drain intervals are generally A3 oils that meet the combined Mercedes-VW-BMW specifications.
And that the US market synthetic motor oils are stuck in the box created by the low phos & fuel economy restrictions of ILSAC GF-3/GF-4.
Note that the Amsoil and the M1 EP motor oils - legitimate extended drain motor oils - do not/did not meet the auto manufacturer's warranty spec's.
So the shorter OCI intervals run in the US vs the European countries are more of a specification issue, rather than a reflection on bad habits of the "uneducated" synthetic motor oil users.
Well said Noob. It's true, however, only if people can resist changing their synthetic oil every 3000 miles and from what I see on this website, that's not the case.
Sorry I haven't posted the first UOA from my wife's '02 Sebring, but M1 for 10k miles looked great, better than average in most respects, with insolubles less than half average. It ran M1 10w30 EP with LC and has a Motorguard bypass filter installed. It will go 15k this OCI.
I figure my investment in the MG install will break even this year, based on comparison to a 3k OCI. 2yr. break-even for a 6k OCI. After this year we are just saving money and I will spend at least 60% less time under the car changing her oil. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Who knows, maybe 20k OCI is somewhere in the future.
I've since applied the same approach to my 2 cars and pickup, all older vehicles that have been undergoing various stages or ARX-ing. The pickup is on it's first clean run of M1 5w-40 and the cars are following, scheduled to be set up finished by the end of summer. No leaks anywhere so far. I'm sold on sane application of the long synthetic OCI.
I figure my investment in the MG install will break even this year, based on comparison to a 3k OCI. 2yr. break-even for a 6k OCI. After this year we are just saving money and I will spend at least 60% less time under the car changing her oil. Seems like a no-brainer to me. Who knows, maybe 20k OCI is somewhere in the future.
I've since applied the same approach to my 2 cars and pickup, all older vehicles that have been undergoing various stages or ARX-ing. The pickup is on it's first clean run of M1 5w-40 and the cars are following, scheduled to be set up finished by the end of summer. No leaks anywhere so far. I'm sold on sane application of the long synthetic OCI.
Based on the oil analysis I have seen, you have no problems running M1 for 10K mile and having superior engine protection.
Good enough for me.
Good enough for me.
But I like changing oil!
Actually, after I use up my current stock of MaxLife, an extended OCI synthetic it shall be...
Actually, after I use up my current stock of MaxLife, an extended OCI synthetic it shall be...
IF...and that is an unconvinced IF on my part...today's dino really is that close to syn, I can understand those of you that have stated a preference for it...and I have no issues with your choice...for me, in the larger scheme of life's total expenses, syn is not a big enough deal to not use it, considering that I believe it is superior.
Synthetic-requiring coke monsters such as my 1.8T aside, I still don't know which is better for a typical car which accumulates about 6k mi / 10k km per year under short trip and stop-and-go conditions: dino at 3k mi / 5k km / 6 months or synthetic at twice that distance and time interval. How well does a modern synthetic oil cope with short trips and traditional oil sludge (as opposed to coke)? Is a Group III pseudo-synthetic really that much better than dino for this type of driving? How about a Group IV?
But yet people will put the same spec'd oils in a North America BMW and have to change it every 5000 miles?
North America is the only area which abides by the 60s oil change principles.
Our clean engines and refined oils have more life in them per oil change.
****, my friends 1992 Civic says to change dino at 7000miles.
Lesser oils changed at 5k mi intervals do not have to pollute more than superior oils at 15k miles. Don't you take your used oil for recycling? To turn it into some more decent quality 'dino' that many of us will use?
Indeed Conventional is a better value than synthetic. Everyone talks about cost.. yet how much do we spend ensuring the safety of an extended OCI? 20, 30 or 40 bucks for a decent UOA and interpretation at times. Lets say we go cheap and spend $30 on a UOA with TBN. That is an additional cost that is highly recomended when running extended OCi's so what do we have now in terms of cost per mile? It's getting less attractive.
By keeping with conventional at recomended OCI's and grades what harm is being done? None at all in fact at this OCI the wear numbers are often better with convenetional oil.
One or two basic non TBN UOA's before the powertrain warranty is up is all that is needed(for a BITOGer most people don't know what a UOA is). How many oil related failures are there??? Seriously it is a rare or model specific issue. I have had many cars and trucks and have done some stupid things like running two years on a chevy shortblock with 1 oil change and topping off with whatever was cheapest (likely ND) and it didn't have an oil related failure.. it had a water pump failure.
I had a ford pinto that had a gallon a week coolant appetite(alot going into the CC) and that was the closest to a lubrication event.
Those were two very cheap($500) used cars that I bought to and did run into the ground and it took alot of abuse to kill them.
I bought my Walmart out of Trpoartic 5w30 toaday. Life is good and in a year 1.48 will seem cheap for a quart.
For those trying to justify syn for eco reasons you need to take into account the extra energy it takes to produce synthetics. Waste oil is recycles and hopefully more and more of it is rerefined.
By keeping with conventional at recomended OCI's and grades what harm is being done? None at all in fact at this OCI the wear numbers are often better with convenetional oil.
One or two basic non TBN UOA's before the powertrain warranty is up is all that is needed(for a BITOGer most people don't know what a UOA is). How many oil related failures are there??? Seriously it is a rare or model specific issue. I have had many cars and trucks and have done some stupid things like running two years on a chevy shortblock with 1 oil change and topping off with whatever was cheapest (likely ND) and it didn't have an oil related failure.. it had a water pump failure.
I had a ford pinto that had a gallon a week coolant appetite(alot going into the CC) and that was the closest to a lubrication event.
Those were two very cheap($500) used cars that I bought to and did run into the ground and it took alot of abuse to kill them.
I bought my Walmart out of Trpoartic 5w30 toaday. Life is good and in a year 1.48 will seem cheap for a quart.
For those trying to justify syn for eco reasons you need to take into account the extra energy it takes to produce synthetics. Waste oil is recycles and hopefully more and more of it is rerefined.
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