Redlines Formulation Approach ....

[TooSlick]

It's clear from looking at the viscometrics of the various Redline formulations that they are using a pretty thick basestock blend, with little or no VI modifier. A comparison of 10w-30 synthetics makes this pretty clear:

CCS viscosities @ -25C:

Redline 10w-30 ...6500 Centipoise
Mobil 1, 10w-30 ...3800 Cp
Amsoil 10w-30 ...3100 Cp - new data, not yet posted

Note: Based on these, both the M1 and Amsoil formulations would meet the CCS viscosity of a 5w-xx oil....

If you look at all the Redline formulations, the CCS viscosities are in the 5000-6500 Cp range. In other words, they are just thin enough to meet the SAE J300 test standards for cold cranking. The CCS viscosities for the various SAE grades are about like you'd find with any good group II, petroleum oil. In fairness to Redline, the pour points of their lubes are lower,since the synthetic basestocks don't contain any wax.

The benefit of Redline approach is that you end up with a very shear stable, low volatility oil. The lack of VI modifier also means it will run very clean.

Any formulation approach you take is a compromise to some degree. If you want to optimize cold weather performance, you give up a bit at the high end, and vice versa. Given the nature of Redlines customer base, I think this is a good compromise for them to make. The thicker basestocks are also more expensive, so it's easy to understand why Redline isn't $4.00-$5.00/quart ....

Tooslick
Dixie Synthetics

 

[userfriendly]

While the other oils may squeek under the 5WXX wire, it would be not by very much and any thickening would put the oil out of grade if labeled 5W30.
Redline and others may be expensive for a number of reasons unrelated to the value of the product.
The performance lubricant market must be getting tougher for the little guys with the majors involved.
What would happen if Shell brought their Advance line to North America and to grab market share sold those products at a loss?

 

[Tim_Z]

Thanks for this information. Is this the reasoning for what you said about RL costing $7+/qt. in the UOA section referring to my post of the Acura3.2L?

Tim

 

[TooSlick]

UF,

My goal is for everyone - including you - to run synlubes year round.

Since synthetics only have about a 5%-7% market share right now, any additional advertising from big companies can only help Redline, Amsoil,etc. Expect to see drain intervals more like they are running in Europe as well of 10k-15k miles.

I look foward to the next 10-15 years - I think you'll see tremendous growth in the synlube market. Perhaps we'll even get rid of those pesky straight weights ...

Tooslick

 

[Jay]

Good observation about RedLine cold temperature properties. I was wondering where you got the Redline CCS spec @ -25 for 10w-30 and the Amsoil too.

 

[userfriendly]

I would imagine straight weights make up about the same market share as synthetics.
Straight weights are a pain in the butt.
You have to be careful not to end up with the wrong grade in the wrong weather.
some single grade 30s have a VI of 120, while others have a VI of 100 and therefore would not be very happy in the cold.
In the cold winter, I would not be without a synthetic, although 5W20 are showing promise for that application, and I just bought a 20 litre pail of SAE 10W that has a VI of 134.
A 0W30 synthetic beats a 5W20 at both ends of the temperature scale, and I've yet to find a certified 5W20 Ford 153H, cheap.
One thing is evident, there is no shortage of engine oil on this continent, and there is something for everyone.
Even Monogrademan.

 

[TooSlick]

Jay,

The Redline site from Oz has a PDF file that contains physical properties on all the Redline stuff. The HT/HS of their 5w-20 is 3.3 Cp - that's higher than most 10w-30 oils, including the Mobil 1, 10w-30. If you have a Ford or Honda, that's the stuff to use!

The new Amsoil spec sheet has been posted on the "dealer only" portion of their website:

Amsoil 10w-30

vis @ 100C, 11.8 Cst
Vis @ 40C, 66 Cst
VI, 176
Noack Vol, 5.5%
HT/HS > 3.5 Cp
PP, -54F
FP, +446F
CCS vis @ -25C, 3097 Cp
TBN > 12.2 (ASTM D2896)
Four Ball wear, .40 mm (40kg/150C/1800 rpms for 1hr)

I'm beginning to think that Mobil sells their best PAO's to Amsoil and Redline ...

Ted

 

[TooSlick]

I wanted to add, that Mobil uses a similar approach with their Delvac 1, 5w-40 product.

VI, 151
CCS viscosity @ -25C, approx 6000 Cp

This is why D1 is much more shear stable than their 0w-40 ....

TS

 

[buster]

quote:

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5w-20 is 3.3 Cp - that's higher than most 10w-30 oils, including the Mobil 1, 10w-30. If you have a Ford or Honda, that's the stuff to use!

---

Good point. After my wife runs through the S2k I bought, I migh give RL 5w-20 a shot.

I find it funny that Mobil would sell Amsoil and Redline there best base oils but considering they are really in different markets (micro/macro) it kind of makes sense. Tooslick, are you sure ExxonMobil is their supplier? The could be buying from another source.

These ATM specs. are awesome! Add a little 132 with that one and I think it's a killer oil. NOAK is incredible. For $4-$5 a qt.!!

When you look at this oil, it's is a better oil then S2k, yet it's much cheaper. Your paying $3 more per qt. for more esters and a 0w. The 10w-30 is A3 rated, while the S2k is borderline. Base stock for S2k is supposed to be better, but I've seen no evidence of that on this website. For fuel efficiency and a lower Cf, S2k is better, but whether it's worth it another story. I think Lubrizol is milking this one with Amsoil.

Has anyone seen the article RL put out shortly after Amsoil came out with S2k? Then ran a comparison comparing RL to S2k in a 4.0L Ford V6. The results they got were interesting claiming that after 20k miles, the RL still performed better then Amsoil S2k with only 300 miles on it. They said that they found S2k to be highly reactive with certain metals and blow by gasses and this caused a reaction with the oil decreasing its capabilities. Now, whether this is true or not I don't know but it does make you wonder how well S2k was field tested. S2k seems more like a regular good synlube then a $8qt oil with super extended drain capabilities.

[ November 01, 2003, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

Buster,

The last time I saw data, Amsoil was buying over a million gallons of PAO from Mobil a year, and that was several years back....

I don't recommend trying to "improve" Amsoil by dumping some oil additive into it. You can get adverse reactions with some additives and Amsoil WILL NOT warranty the product if you do this.

Suggested retail on the Amsoil 5w-30 and 10w-30 is $5.75/qt and that's what we sell it for locally.

Tooslick

 

[Al]

I assume that Mobil is probably using the "SpectraSyn 10". If you look at the properties its not hard to imagine that Mobil 1 10W-30 is composed of SpectraSyn 10, Estorex TM101, and SpectraSynUltra. So it probably has no VI improver either.

I wonder what Ester Redline is. Its none of the Esterex Types.

SpectraSyn 10

Esterex TM101

SpectraSynUltra (SuperSyn 150

Mobil 1 10W-30

 

[TooSlick]

Al,

That's pretty much what I thought when I reviewed those basestock specifications. Redline may be getting their ester basestocks from Hatco Chemical in NJ. They were Amsoil original diester supplier in the early 1970's ....

When Amsoil first came out with their 10w-30 in 1984, it had a vis @ 100C of 10.0 Cst and a VI of 142. They made a point of mentioning it had no VI modifiers. I think the M1, 10w-30 is similar ....

BTW, the highest quality PAO's that ChevronPhillips makes are called "1-dodecene", and have significantly lower volatility than the older "1-decene" PAO's -

Noacks are about 50% lower for a 5 Cst, 1-dodecene compared to a 4 Cst, 1-decene, for example ....

Ted

 

[Pablo]

TS - thanks for posting this. This data does show up in shear stability of RL. But why the he!! does Amsoil pay so dern much for the thinner base stocks in S2K 0W-30....or am I not holding my head right?

Buster - the "article" you are refer to, was Redline advertising some years back. It compared a Redline racing oil to an earlier version of S2K 20w-50 (not 0W-30). It only was talking about 4-ball wear tests and how virgin Amsoil is better, but Redline used (not 20K miles) shows lower 4-ball numbers. Terry is fond of dredging this one up, but I find it ironic - one side says 4 ball tests are meaningless, Amsoil uses them for advertising, then the same "meaningless" crowd uses the data against Amsoil. Sounds like dueling Marketing dept's to me.

 

[buster]

quote:

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But why the he!! does Amsoil pay so dern much for the thinner base stocks in S2K 0W-30....or am I not holding my head right?

Buster - the "article" you are refer to, was Redline advertising some years back. It compared a Redline racing oil to an earlier version of S2K 20w-50 (not 0W-30). It only was talking about 4-ball wear tests and how virgin Amsoil is better, but Redline used (not 20K miles) shows lower 4-ball numbers. Terry is fond of dredging this one up, but I find it ironic - one side says 4 ball tests are meaningless, Amsoil uses them for advertising, then the same "meaningless" crowd uses the data against Amsoil. Sounds like dueling Marketing dept's to me.

---

I thought the article compared both RL 20-50 and there racing oils? I belive the article was comparing Cf and 4 ball wear. Smart move on Amsoil's marketing department to use the 4 ball wear. I bet they sell alot of oil by misleading people with that one. The article claimed that Amsoil formulates their oils in a way that makes them great in bench mark tests, but yet when subjected to actual engine conditions, they don't always hold up as well. In Amsoil's defense, it's not apples to apples when comparing a race oil to a street oil so it is a stupid comparison if that is what they were doing.

Pablo, other then the Cf package and more esters, I would find it a hard sell to push S2k with specs like the ATM/ASL have. Amsoil, IMO, should beef up S2k somehow. They are selling an oil that IMO isn't any better then the base line for more money. Weird...

[ November 02, 2003, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[TooSlick]

Pablo,

There are various quality levels of PAO, with different VI's and volatilities. The Series 2000 uses more ester than the regular 5w-30/10w-30, it uses a different type of antiwear chemistry and it uses a more expensive and shear stable VI modifier (the S3000 uses this same polymer, I believe). I'm sure if they could lower the price by $1.00/qt, they would do so, since they'd sell a lot more of the stuff.

Test the S2000 vs the regular 5w-30 or 10w-30 in the same engine under the same conditions and it will hold up better.

12,000 mile results in my 2.4L Tacoma: (same commute & same fuel and driver)

S2000/0w-30:

oxidation 24%
nitration 40%
TBN, 8.4
viscosity @ 100C, 11.2 Cst (VOA was 11.3)

5w-30/ASL:

oxidation 41%
nitration 50%
TBN, 7.2
Viscosity @ 100C, 10.9 (VOA was 11.8)

Series 3000, 5w-30 (15,000 miles):

oxidation 20%
nitration 50%
TBN, 7.2
Viscosity @ 100C, 12.1 (VOA was 11.7)

Ted

 

[buster]

TS, do you think these results though are significant enough to offset the increase in price they are charing for S2k? I don't see enough benefit from these results to be honest.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Pablo]

Buster - you sorta missed my point. I don't think Amsoil is misleading people with the 4-ball wear tests and I certainly don't agree with the Redline BS - real life tests have proven Amsoil oils hold up. My point was the irony of the anti 4-ball wear test people using the data for their side (ie the test is either bogus or it isn't.

I have written many times about the 4 ball - it's just a number, ignore it if it bugs you. Yes, it tells you NOTHING about motor oil life.

TS - OK results, but not in agreement with mine and others numbers. Especially the TBN. That usually plummets like a lead rock. (

9.8 m*s*s) Also, there is nothing there that really tells me it's a 35,000 mile oil. But your vis (and others) look good, backing up your post.

 

[buster]

Pablo, I understood your point, I just threw that in there bc I'm not a fan of Amsoil's marketing strategy. My friend was stupid enough to by into the 4-ball wear idea and I'm sure many other Amsoil customers buy into it as well. There oils are proven no doubt. As I stated though, the performance of S2k IMO is not significant enough to justify the $3qt price difference. If I go back and look at all Amsoil's UOA's on this board I clearly do not see any significant benefit from this oil. I did mention that my friend is running it in his Vette and it lowered his engine temps. Jim V from Amsoil confirmed that S2k oil contain a better friction modifier package. So for performance cars, S2k I can see being better.

[ November 02, 2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Jay]

quote:

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Originally posted by TooSlick:
... The HT/HS of their 5w-20 is 3.3 Cp - that's higher than most 10w-30 oils, including the Mobil 1, 10w-30. If you have a Ford or Honda, that's the stuff to use!...

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It's funny that you should mention the main reason RedLine oil doesn't interest me--that high HTHS viscosity. Gas mileage is important to me and I prefer an oil with a HTHS less than 3cP.