Redline...

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I have ran UOA's with M1 in my car. I could go through with all the more "detailed" tests of the oil, but your talking some big money. More than just switching oil brands thats for sure, but I see your point.

The reason why I am considering walking away from M1 is my car isn't stock, and is pushing 200bhp per liter. My tuner wants me to run 20/50 Royal Purple. I think that is just ridicolous on an OEM spec motor, and I argue with him about it. haha. If I had a built motor then I can see it, but Bolt On's, Cams and a tune, doesnt justify 50w oil in my book.

So I am looking into a "racing" 30w oil to help with wear and to hopefully help the motor out. It would be worth the added cost to me. M1 is great oil, but I think my motor may need more, but then again that cant be proven unless I do some very thorough testing of which I am sure I can't afford. haha.

So I have been looking at the RP XPR 5/30 or Redline 5/30. Since Redline has so much Moly in it, does it Moly Plate the Internals as RP claims their oil does?
 
If you don't want to run the right tests, you'll have no way of knowing what's happening unless something pops. In other words, there's no way to know if you even have a problem that Red Line -- or any oil, for that matter -- can fix; if you do switch, you'll have no way to know if the new oil is helping; etc. Any decision you make will essentially be for the heck of it.

On the flip side, it seems to me from what you're saying that you're not actually interested in finding the absolute perfect oil; you just want something that will most likely work until something else kills your engine. If that's the case, why worry when there is no reason to think your current oil will come up short?

Keep in mind: the fact that Mobil 1 10w-30 is "stock" engine oil doesn't mean it's the weakest link in the chain for a heavily modified engine. My mom's plain-Jane 228 hp naturally aspirated V6 specs Mobil 1 0w-40; that doesn't mean that oil wouldn't run all day in much tougher apps (which it has been doing for years).
 
Without the proper tests, one has to use word of mouth, not in the oil community but the mechanical world. If one oil tends to perform better in a turbo charged application vs one that isn't, then it would behoove me to try it out.

My UOA's thus far have shown M1 10/30EP have held up quite well. Here is a quote from my last UOA:

JEFF: Looks like you've got a nice 2.0L engine under the hood of your Evo. Universal averages are based
on 3,000 miles on the oil, and your wear read at or close to those averages. The oil was in good shape
physically, containing no moisture, fuel, or coolant. Silicon read normally, which tells us the air filter is still
getting the job done. Insolubles give us an idea about the health of the oil filtration system and with a low
reading of 0.2%, we'd say your filter is working well. All in all, this looks like a great engine! No problem to
report at 42,800 miles.

Its just I keep pushing the ante on my car. Soon I may try switching back to WMI, or E85 which will propel my car to over 400whp out of 2.0L motor. Astonishing to say the least, but I just think at that point, I will be needing something a little more stout. In theory anyway.

I was considering Redline, but I am concerned how the Esters will affect my turbo journal bearings over time. The end caps of the bearings are Brass. Not sure how the esters will treat them over time.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was considering Redline, but I am concerned how the Esters will affect my turbo journal bearings over time. The end caps of the bearings are Brass. Not sure how the esters will treat them over time.


You may try PMing Tom NJ.
 
Thanks Ben, will give him a try
smile.gif


I see you use Redline, your thoughts on the use of the oil?
 
My thoughts on Red Line, I love it. After some minor consumption over the first thousand miles or so of use, RL has provided the lowest oil consumption of any oil I've used to date. My 4V in particular always burned a little oil when run hard (7200 rpm) despite a PCV filter, with RL this was eliminated. It has provided me with the smoothest and quietest warm engines of any oil I've used to date, the Mustang in particular was fairly dramatic, the F150 less so though still readily noticeable. It consistently provides the most consistent sounding cold starts of any oil I've used to date. I think it's a great product, but every engine is different and YMMV.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Without the proper tests, one has to use word of mouth, not in the oil community but the mechanical world.

I disagree. Junk evidence is not better than no evidence.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If one oil tends to perform better in a turbo charged application vs one that isn't, then it would behoove me to try it out.

Indeed.

Here's the thing: If you're using Mobil 1, you're already using something that is near the top of the game for high-temp applications. It's not going to be easy to find something significantly better. You will need either to have access to some really esoteric and proprietary info (which BITOG is extremely poorly equipped to provide), or to devote your own time and effort to figuring it out for yourself.

As Ben99GT pointed out, Tom NJ on this forum can give you some good information on esters. If you're looking to compare oils, though, you need information on total formulations, and most of the good information will be proprietary.

See what I mean? You have to decide first whether you're interested in devoting real resources to figuring this out, and then go from there.



Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
My UOA's thus far have shown M1 10/30EP have held up quite well. Here is a quote from my last UOA:

Again: The standard Blackstone UOA is virtually useless as a one-off way to indicate wear. All it can really do is tell you if the oil is way overdue for a change. It can't tell you with any degree of certainty how well the oil is protecting any part of your engine. The reasons for this have been pretty well laid out. Since their comments are based on the tests they run, I wouldn't put much stock in them.



Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Its just I keep pushing the ante on my car. Soon I may try switching back to WMI, or E85 which will propel my car to over 400whp out of 2.0L motor. Astonishing to say the least, but I just think at that point, I will be needing something a little more stout. In theory anyway.

Again, more stout than what? If you have no reason to suspect that Mobil 1 10w-30 EP isn't doing the job, and if you aren't interested in following up to keep a close eye on things, what are you really worried about?
 
I think what he is referring to is Royal Purple claims its 10w40 XPR, or 5w20 XPR for that matter, are designed to handle methanol injected engined (nitrous and alcohol too). Meaning that 10w40 XPR is made for that specific purpose. I don't know what that actually means but I can verify that Royal Purple advertises this as it's in their brochure.
 
I guess I am here for what all of us (I think) are here for. To obtain knowledge so we can pour what we feel is the best product for our vehicles.

I get allot of resistance to using M1 in my Evo. In the Evo world, M1 is not the best choice. This is mainly coming from engine builders that see 600-1000whp cars though, and when I ask what is best to use for an OEM block and turbo, I get the "anything but M1" attitude. The thing is, no one tells me why. So this puts doubt in my mind.

The Evo, and I won't go into too much, because most people just see a car as transportation, but The Evo to some may be considered a "race" car right out of the box. When do we consider a car a "Race" car vs a "street" car? Is it its performance capabilities? Is it the sum of its parts? Is it where its driven? If thats the case, then the Evo is a "race" car. So, that gives me reason to believe that maybe the SM Rated M1 EP in my car now isn't up to snuff. I would never really know, because I don't take the motor apart.

So even with 42,000 miles on the clock, and the M1 has been in 75% of the time, the question is, can I do better? Would I be wasting money trying a "race" oil? Sure, I am not at the 8K rev limiter everyday or boosting at WOT all day long, but the car is capable of that. So the question is, and I still ask, would (based on people's experience here) using a "race" oil be beneficial to prevent wear and to maximize HP and TQ? Or is that all just smoke and mirrors??

As a car enthusiast, I am always looking for that "little extra" People spend thousands of dollars to obtain minimum gains in HP and TQ, I choose parts wisely and try to obtain information as I am here on the oil stuff. Oil is marketed in such a way its dificult to know what is real, or what is fiction. Most of the stuff you read may or may not ever be proven. That is for sure. If Redline is an oil that people say is worth a try, then why now? If people think its a waste of mooney, I want to know why? So I can decide what I want to try. Thats all.

My Goal with this car from day one:

400whp/400wtq, reliability, dependability, and practicality. I think choosing the right motor oil finds its niche in there somewhere. Don't You? If the M1 is fine then why are there so many people bashing it? Are they just haters? or is M1 slipping down the ranks?
 
If the Evo community is like the Subaru community, a lot of the Mobil1 haters base their comments on their experience with the "regular" M1 5W-30 and 10W-30 in highly modified cars.

As to the original Red Line question, I wouldn't worry too much about potential downfalls of esters. That's why RL blends in PAO's. As far as the ultimate oil, RL is probably in the top few for a turbo application, IMO. I ran it once but consumed 2 qts. In 5k and that scared me away from it. I probably should have given it another chance as consumption probably would've improved.

I also wouldn't read too much into $30 uoa's in trying to decide either. I blew an OEM Mitsubishi turbo with only 20k on it and no real signs of any problem in the previous uoa.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
If the M1 is fine then why are there so many people bashing it? Are they just haters? or is M1 slipping down the ranks?

Neither.

They are the most common. Thus, they are associated with being "OEM," a.k.a. mediocre, and their product happens to be what's in people's sumps when their engines break. Plus, some companies build their marketing on the premise of being better than the mainstream companies, of which Mobil is one. Since there is so little real data out there, and most people have really poor standards of evidence, the deck is somewhat stacked against Mobil 1 in the enthusiast market.
 
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So in the M1 world if you want to stick with a 30w it seems the pick of the lott from M1 would be the HM variants? It seems people like the HM better than the EP. Even though the EP has 50% more supersyn in it. Does that mean supersyn is well, worthless? If the HM has a more robust oil additive package then why buy the EP? I get confused on that. That supersyn stuff must have some play in there that just doesn't show in a UOA.

This oil stuff puzzles me. One person posted in his Subie he used 2 qts of oil??? I mean that is crazy. What would cause Redline to be consumed like that if it has such a high HTHS? The oil should be fairly dense so to speak. and the evap loss is very low on Redline. So where does the oil go??
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
32.gif


So in the M1 world if you want to stick with a 30w it seems the pick of the lott from M1 would be the HM variants? It seems people like the HM better than the EP. Even though the EP has 50% more supersyn in it. Does that mean supersyn is well, worthless? If the HM has a more robust oil additive package then why buy the EP? I get confused on that. That supersyn stuff must have some play in there that just doesn't show in a UOA.

This oil stuff puzzles me. One person posted in his Subie he used 2 qts of oil??? I mean that is crazy. What would cause Redline to be consumed like that if it has such a high HTHS? The oil should be fairly dense so to speak. and the evap loss is very low on Redline. So where does the oil go??


That much oil consumption is odd, but some consumption is not uncommon with RL as it seats in. It's been reported my many RL users on this board. I experienced close to a 1/2 quart loss in both engines over the first few hundred miles, but once topped off again I was rewarded with the least consumption of any oil I've ever used.
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I was considering Redline, but I am concerned how the Esters will affect my turbo journal bearings over time. The end caps of the bearings are Brass. Not sure how the esters will treat them over time.


I would not have any worries about polyol esters affecting brass end caps. Properly formulated, my only concern with saturated POEs in motor oils is seal compatibility, which is corrected with the addition of adequate levels of PAO.

Tom NJ
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So in the M1 world if you want to stick with a 30w it seems the pick of the lott from M1 would be the HM variants? It seems people like the HM better than the EP. Even though the EP has 50% more supersyn in it. Does that mean supersyn is well, worthless? If the HM has a more robust oil additive package then why buy the EP? I get confused on that.

They are different oils for different purposes. HM is for older, looser engines; EP is for longer drain intervals.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
That supersyn stuff must have some play in there that just doesn't show in a UOA.

Definitely. Just like a lot of the most important stuff in a modern engine oil.
wink.gif



Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
This oil stuff puzzles me. One person posted in his Subie he used 2 qts of oil??? I mean that is crazy. What would cause Redline to be consumed like that if it has such a high HTHS? The oil should be fairly dense so to speak. and the evap loss is very low on Redline. So where does the oil go??

I second what Ben99GT said on this point. High ester oils tend to cause consumption to spike when switching from one oil to another. Many people seem to switch back to their oil oils in disgust when they see this, but the consumption will level off once you run the same oil for a while.
 
This is a really tough choice, I am not one to switch brands of oil often, what I buy I want to stick with, weather I have to order it or not. I feel Royal Purple XPR 5/30 is out, Not that its a bad choice, its just $15 per qt and I just think its over priced.

I am stuck on two. Amsoil RD30 or Redline 5/30 (as recommended by Dave at Redline over the 10/30). Amsoil I can get 6qts shipped to the house for $60. Redline about the same. Ester vs. PAO here, haha. Both are very very good, while Redline has a higher HTHS of 3.8 even in its 5/30 trim, and has a flashpoint of 486F vs RD30's 3.6 HTHS and Flashpoint of 453F, of which both are just awesome.

Its a tough call, Dave has been really cool about it all, no sales pitch, no hype, just gives it how it is, where as Amsoil is more like "ours is the best so don't bother with anyone else attitude" of which I think kinda stinks. But sales tact aside, both are great oils.

So how do you decide??? Like I said earlier, its like a woman trying to pick out a dress. Haha
 
Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So how do you decide??? Like I said earlier, its like a woman trying to pick out a dress. Haha

Not a bad analogy. What do you tell your woman in that situation?
wink.gif
 
IIRC, Red Line may have more detergents allowing for a longer interval. That probably doesn't matter if you only run it to 3-4k though. I know there's an RL 5W-30 VOA posted and a Dominator 5W-20 in the VOA Forum.

Maybe Tom could sneak into his old employer and run some Gas Chromatography tests on both.
grin.gif


-Dennis
 
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