Redline...

[saaber1]

Originally Posted By: dailydriver
Originally Posted By: saaber1
Baxter auto parts is a chain store that sells redline for $7.58 /qt. I think this is a northwest/CA chain? but maybe they would do the free shipping on a case also.?


WOW!! I have NEVER seen it that inexpensive!! That is getting down into the 'off-the-shelf' oil prices!! In fact, I've seen M1 EP, Synpower, and domestic Castrol Syntec for MORE than that!!!


Went in to baxter auto parts sat and price went up to 7.99 per quart. FYI

 

[Brandon26pdx]

I can verify that. Baxters regularly has Redline for less than $8/qt. Used it regularly in my turbocharged 4G63 Mitsubishi engine with good results.

 

[d00df00d]

Red Line oils in general have three major strengths IMO:

1. Viscosity retention. They won't thicken up or thin out with use (unless there's a ton of fuel dilution or something).

2. They lay down really thick films in bearings -- much thicker than almost all of their peers in any given viscosity grade.

3. They are really good at cleaning up deposits.

 

[glennc]

Interesting summary.

Because Red Line often gives UOA results with mediocre wear metals I sort of have this mental image of the esters' strong bonds "grabbing" microscopically protuding bits of metal from the engine's surfaces while in use, smoothing the surface slightly and picking up molecular pieces that would probably have been lost soon to wear anyway - sort of like pulling up the weaker grass strands with a rake, leaving what's left stronger than what was there.

If that's an accurate image, then how do we know that it is not what is happening in any UOA that has slightly higher wear metals. For example, M1 oils often have higher Iron readings than most ordinary conventionals... how do we excuse Red Line while otherwise considering lower wear metals to be generally better than higher wear metals, while still in the "normal" range?

It just seems a little bit questionable, although I do it myself, to look at wear metals in general as an indicator of an oil's effectiveness, but then to give Red Line a pass on possibly arbitrary grounds.

Anybody have any insight on that?

 

[d00df00d]

There have been a few cases in which people have posted good historical oil analysis data (i.e. results from many consecutive OCIs) before and after switching to Red Line from a more typical synthetic oil. In those cases, wear metals typically spiked just after the switch and then declined steadily with each OCI. That leads people to believe that Red Line oils have a cleaning effect vaguely similar to what you're describing.

Mobil 1 oils are known to clean pretty well, but I wouldn't expect a similar effect from them because they are mostly Group III/IV.

 

[buster]

Originally Posted By: glennc
Interesting summary.

Because Red Line often gives UOA results with mediocre wear metals I sort of have this mental image of the esters' strong bonds "grabbing" microscopically protuding bits of metal from the engine's surfaces while in use, smoothing the surface slightly and picking up molecular pieces that would probably have been lost soon to wear anyway - sort of like pulling up the weaker grass strands with a rake, leaving what's left stronger than what was there.

If that's an accurate image, then how do we know that it is not what is happening in any UOA that has slightly higher wear metals. For example, M1 oils often have higher Iron readings than most ordinary conventionals... how do we excuse Red Line while otherwise considering lower wear metals to be generally better than higher wear metals, while still in the "normal" range?

It just seems a little bit questionable, although I do it myself, to look at wear metals in general as an indicator of an oil's effectiveness, but then to give Red Line a pass on possibly arbitrary grounds.

Anybody have any insight on that?


That is the million dollar question. Your idea is shared by a few that Redline does indeed scavage the surface and therefore shows higher wear metals initiall which will level off in time. I was told by Redline it is not wear but rather oxides.

 

[glennc]

I suppose it is the trend that is important as usual. I've seen those Red Line UOAs get better over several OCIs - but you can run Mobil 1 a dozen times and it will alway have highish Fe.

I read a post by Fuel Tanker Man once where he said that something to the effect that the Chevron oils (Delo, Havoline etc) do a better job of keeping iron parts from rusting than M1 and that was what explained their always-excellent Fe numbers. I thought at the time that there might be something to that. Why it's true is another question.

Still, I guess the question really becomes, when you see a single run with an oil that is not totally familiar, and the wear metals are highish, is it fair to believe that it is because the oil didn't work so well? I think so... but with a trace of uncertainty.

 

[benjamming]

Many times there are mechanical issues going on in a car that most on here (including me) would never notice. This is something that I find out from Terry in his analysis. That is one reason why there is a large amount of uncertainty in comparing wear metals to determine the best oil. Sometimes you can use chemistry to overcome problems. Each oil has its own chemistry that may work better than others for the particular problem you are having, fuel dilution is one example. It doesn't mean that one oil is superior to other oils in every way but it doesn't mean it is not either.

 

[ARB1977]

Ran it in my Tacoma starting 9K-45K with 5K changes in between...great oil.

 

[Peromyscus]

Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Ran it in my Tacoma starting 9K-45K with 5K changes in between...great oil.


Question for you...You ran Redline for ~35K mi & said it was great. Now you run Amsoil (looks also like ~35K mi). Why did you switch?

 

[Peromyscus]

I've been trying to compare stengths & weaknesses between Group IV (e.g. amsoil) and Group V (e.g. redline) oils. I have been reading, looking for references, etc. Can any of you comment on this or else direct me to a reference that might discuss this in some detail?

 

[Steve S]

Originally Posted By: ARB1977
Ran it in my Tacoma starting 9K-45K with 5K changes in between...great oil.
5,000 mile oil changes will work well with any oil.

 

[virginoil]

It is a very well respected oil on this site.

I believe there are better value for money oils, unless you see high temperature use often.

For daily street use it is questionable. Unless you are in love with your car or money is not issue.

 

[dailydriver]

Originally Posted By: virginoil
I believe there are better value for money oils, unless you see high temperature use often.

For daily street use it is questionable. Unless you are in love with your car or money is not issue.


My take on this is that a lot of the 'off the shelf' synthetics are now starting to creep up in price to the point that Red Line does not seem all that exorbibtant anymore (even for daily street use).
The 'value' comes in with the extreme shear/dilution resistance/fairly high and stable TBN of this stuff, enabling one to safely go for extended OCIs.

Now, of course, this all goes out the window when one can procure the most excellent Pennzoil Platinum on sale/rebate/BOGO, etc. for ~$.99-$1.99 a quart!!!!

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I am bringing this post back from the past. I too have been on the fence about Redline Oil for a while now. I agree that for the average grocery getter it is over kill. In my case, running this oil in my Lancer Evo that makes 200bhp per liter may be a better choice for me. I have been using M1 since my car was new, and even as the HP and TQ went up, I kept using it. My only other experience with another oil in this car was Royal Purple Racing 41 now called XPR 10/40. I was using that breifly because I was running Water/Meth Injection and the RP 41 was good oil for that application. The Meth kit got pulled out, and so did the RP 41 oil.

Now, I am considering Redline over M1 that I have used for years, why? Well, I live in an extremely warm climate where temps in the summer months are at times over 120F. (2) Turbo charged car (oil and water cooled turbo) and I felt that the higher flash point of Redline would pretty much eliminate any chance of "coking" or minimize the carbon deposits better than probably any oil out there. The Redline 5/30 That Dave recommended for my car has a Flash point of 486F

(3) for a 30W oil it has a HTHS of 3.8!!! I mean that is insane for a 30W oil. My Evo stock clearances require a 30W oil, though many Evo owners run a 50W I think that is simply redicolous unless you have a totally built motor that requires it. (4) cost. M1 is the best deal, the HM 10/30 Runs $24 for 5 qts, and the Redline runs $9.95 p/qt.


Money aside, I think no one will argue the fact that Redline is one of the best oils you can buy PERIOD. But here is the catch. I have read so many UOA's and VOA's on this oil, as well as tesimonials (good and bad) that just make the oil seem very inconsistant. Some say that its Redlines ability to basically detox your engine, while others say that Redline has a crazy odd mixture. I do know Redline is composed of Group V synthetics which make it unique (like Motul) and it has a TON of Moly and a TON of ZDDP, which trickles down from the "race car roots" that the oil begin with. Some may call this a "botique" oil, I dissagree, its a RACE oil and people try to compare it to a "street" oil and complain about price and UOA's. As hypocritical as it sounds, everything as a whole sounds so inconsistant. So does anyone know of any oil experts out there that I can PM and ask some questions?

Seems so many people simply LOVE this oil, where some DISPISE it. I just want to get all the facts on the table, as many as I can get from some crazy oil guru or mad scientist that cooks this stuff himself in the backyard to test it. I want the REAL lowdown folks!!! haha.

Currenly I am running M1 EP 10/30, I just think the added ZDDP, and Moly in the Redline, with its High Flashpoint and High HTHS rating with a 5/30 flow is just sounds like the right ticket for my Turbo Charged application.

Other Oils I have been considering: M1 10/30 HM (not a racing oil, but has some very good specs for my application), Amsoil Dominator 10/30, and Royal Purple XPR 5/30.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I felt that the higher flash point of Redline would pretty much eliminate any chance of "coking" or minimize the carbon deposits better than probably any oil out there.

Not necessarily. There is more to deposit prevention than flash point AFAIK.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Money aside, I think no one will argue the fact that Redline is one of the best oils you can buy PERIOD.

I will.

I wouldn't knock it, but I certainly wouldn't call it "one of the best."

Then again, my criteria may be different from most, so...


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I do know Redline is composed of Group V synthetics which make it unique (like Motul) and it has a TON of Moly and a TON of ZDDP, which trickles down from the "race car roots" that the oil begin with.

As I'm sure you've heard, it's the total formulation that matters. Don't get hung up on details like this; look for the total effect.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
So does anyone know of any oil experts out there that I can PM and ask some questions?

Depends on the questions. Perhaps you could list some here, and we could point you in the right direction.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Currenly I am running M1 EP 10/30, I just think the added ZDDP, and Moly in the Redline, with its High Flashpoint and High HTHS rating with a 5/30 flow is just sounds like the right ticket for my Turbo Charged application.

Flash point and HTHS are good.

ZDDP and moly... Maybe, maybe not. Too much can lead to deposits.

 

[BobFout]

We all know (or should know) the fallacy of using UOAs to compare oils or determine wear. (not directed at you Jeff)

Redline is one of the best performing oils out there. I would use it in your application without hesitation.

 

[Jeffs2006EvoIX]

I agree that redline would be good for my application. I guess I am just reading into stuff too much.

Here is the deal. The stuff costs $10 p/qt. Who cares if the stuff actually works well. It just seems that many folks have had seal compatibility problems. Thats what I am worried about. I am not sure which seals in particular since in a motor itself there really are not many actual "seals" but people noticed oil consumption and oil leaks while using Redline.

Now that can account that Redline cleaned up some mess in the motor to reveal a leaky seal that was previously held together with crud, so is that it?

I also want to know how well Moly works. I know back in the day Moly was the shizzle. It seemed all kinds of Motor oil had either graphite or Moly in it as a huge sell point. I wonder if all that moly would help with lubrication of my Turbo Journal bearings? Or work against it since moly is a solid and not a chemical?

People all seeem to have their brand preferences, but you can't compare a "race" oil to a "street" oil and even though Redline sells oils as "street" oils, but in reality are just their racing oils with detergents in them (primarily). I know some will argue that too, but keeping things simple, that is the primary difference.

Additionally, If Redline has the ability to clean up metal surfaces, some even say it may "smooth" out metal surfaces, and when I hear that, it sounds like a Royal Purple Ad.

I just want to know if this stuff is really going to benefit my car over using over the counter oils at my local Wally World. I like to see results. If an oil isn't going to help me over the M1 I have been using for years, then why should I spend the money? If there is no performance advantage, then why? If your engine is clean? then why? Is it all just about having that safety margin of error? Or are we all just a bunch of peranoid oil fanatics?

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
It just seems that many folks have had seal compatibility problems. Thats what I am worried about. I am not sure which seals in particular since in a motor itself there really are not many actual "seals" but people noticed oil consumption and oil leaks while using Redline.

Without any properly gathered and evaluated statistics, I think it's safe to say you can disregard those anecdotes.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
Now that can account that Redline cleaned up some mess in the motor to reveal a leaky seal that was previously held together with crud, so is that it?

Possibly.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I also want to know how well Moly works. I know back in the day Moly was the shizzle. It seemed all kinds of Motor oil had either graphite or Moly in it as a huge sell point. I wonder if all that moly would help with lubrication of my Turbo Journal bearings? Or work against it since moly is a solid and not a chemical?

Moly is an EP additive, isn't it?

I can see how it'd help in an older car that didn't run as hot and might have higher spring pressures in the valvetrain. Today, it seems to be of limited utility.


Originally Posted By: Jeffs2006EvoIX
I just want to know if this stuff is really going to benefit my car over using over the counter oils at my local Wally World. I like to see results. If an oil isn't going to help me over the M1 I have been using for years, then why should I spend the money? If there is no performance advantage, then why? If your engine is clean? then why? Is it all just about having that safety margin of error? Or are we all just a bunch of peranoid oil fanatics?

There is no way to know for sure unless you try it, or look at someone with a similar setup who has tried it.

If all you want is a reason to try it, that's a different story. You'll have to make that determination yourself.

Here's a question that I don't think has been addressed: Do you feel that your current oil might be inadequate in any way? Maybe the best way to proceed is to get a good UOA with a healthy test package (i.e. something better than the standard $20 ones) and gather oil temperature and pressure info, and go from there. If it ain't broke, there's no reason to fix it.

 

[chevrofreak]

This is the price list for our Red Line products where I work.

Because I'm an employee, I get a very good discount. I'm going to start using Red Line in pretty much everything I own. It really is absolutely amazing stuff. I've even been using it on my guns with great success.

Check out the price for the SI-1.