Redline—has anyone figured this stuff out?

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

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Originally posted by buster:
Thatwouldbegreat, if we saw Redline results on a consistant basis that looked good.

But we havn't. Could be for many reasons. Redline has a good reputation. Some say it's marketing, some say it's just a great oil. I think like others have said, it's a good racing oil. Not so sure how good of a daily driver oil it is, yet. NASCAR doesn't use much RL, nor does F1 from what I've read. Usually when I give my opinion, the opposite ends up being true. So it's most likely a great oil.

---

Well I've used Redline for 6 years and Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec for 10 years.

I gave up on Castrol when Castrol changed formulas and started the 'Group III is 'legally' synthetic' nonsense.

Since then it seems like Castrol Syntec has made some great oil...but I haven't tried it.

I still use Mobil 1, but Redline is the best performing oil I've used, and its my first choice.

I think the driving in my area is stressful enough to test any engine oil.

So what's the reason why so many people are in such turmoil over Redline?

Is it their test results, or their testing methodology?

 

[buster]

quote:

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So what's the reason why so many people are in such turmoil over Redline?

Is it their test results, or their testing methodology?

---

To date, RL hasn't had that many spectacular UOAs to justify it's cost. And most of what we see is hard to interpret so it's really a tough call. It's reputation among drag racing is tops, but as a daily driver oil it might not be ideal. If you do a search on RL in this section and the UOA section you'll see heated debates and questions about Redline. It makes for some interesting debates.

[ July 05, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: buster ]

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

---

Originally posted by buster:

quote:

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So what's the reason why so many people are in such turmoil over Redline?

Is it their test results, or their testing methodology?

---

To date, RL hasn't had that many spectacular UOAs to justify it's cost. And most of what we see is hard to interpret so it's really a tough call. It's reputation among drag racing is tops, but as a daily driver oil it might not be ideal. If you do a search on RL in this section and the UOA section you'll see heated debates and questions about Redline. It makes for some interesting debates.

---

I've seen some of the UOA's and many seem to be problem UOA's.

Like they tried Redline after 90K of some other oil and Redline scavenged junk, or they shocked the system with a strong injector cleaner and then sampled.

This engine ran factory fill 5W-30 for 3K, Valvoline from the Dealer 5W-30 for 2K, Redline 5W-30 for 5K of winter driving with lots of warmup and idling....

....and then this sample, which ran from 10K until 18K

I think the UOA is very good.

The engines always seem to run smoother and quieter and drive better with Redline than with Mobil 1...and the mileage and oi temps are better with Redline

So, the engine ran well, I got good mileage (25 to 27 mpg) used zero oil in 8K of often times high rev wide open throttle driving with hills and a 100 degree temperature range.

And the UOA seems very good.

What more can I expect the oil to do?

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

By the way , about cost.

I usually buy Redline at $6.35 per quart and then shipping ( which sort of equals paying sales tax on the $4.77 per quart Mobil 1 I buy.

But, even at $7.00 per quart,Redline at 10K OCI costs the same per mile as Mobil 1 at $4.77 and 7000 OCI

I usually change the Mobil 1 closer to 5000 and the Redline closer to 8000, since I think I put enough stress on the engines to justify spending a bit more on oil and shortened OCI's

Over 200K I'll spend $508 on Redline @ 10K OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $560 Redline @ $7 /qt @ 10K OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $635 on Redline 5W-40 @ 8K OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $587 on Mobil 0W-40 @ 6.5K OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $608 on Mobil 1 5W-30 in 5 quart jugs @ 5 OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $378 on Motorcraft 5W-30 @ 3K OCI

Over 200K I'll spend $239 on Chevron Supreme 10W-30 from Costco @ 3K OCI

So the most I can save is $400 over 200,000 miles and $7400 in fuel and $1200 to $2200 in tires and probably $6000 in insurance over 10 years.

So if fuel, tires and insurance cost $15,400 over 10 years and 200,000 miles then the $400 is only 2.6% more than the least expensive good oil I can find ... and only .26% more tha Mobil 1.

And I would have to change oil every 6 weeks, or 10 weeks, instead of every 20 weeks.

I could see where the Chevron Supreme oil might be attractive...if I drove easy and had a very convenient way to change oil.

And I certainly can see why Mobil 1 is attractive .....good protection , moderate service intervals, and $3.80 to $4.77 /qt available at every Wal Mart

And I can see why Amsoil Series 2000 and 3000 is attractive with longer drain intervals if proper filtration and testing is used.

So why is it so hard for people to see that Redline is also a good balance?

Especially when the engines are modified or driven hard.

I think I'm less likely to have an engine failure with Redline than any other oil I could use.

 

[pscholte]

twbg,

You have exceeded your analysis limit for the 24 hour period beginning @ 1938 MST 4 July 2004. I recommend you ride your mountain bike down the NASTAR course about five times and think about other things for awhile.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

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Originally posted by pscholte:
twbg,

You have exceeded your analysis limit for the 24 hour period beginning @ 1938 MST 4 July 2004. I recommend you ride your mountain bike down the NASTAR course about five times and think about other things for awhile.

---

LOL!

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

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I've seen some of the UOA's and many seem to be problem UOA's.

Like they tried Redline after 90K of some other oil and Redline scavenged junk, or they shocked the system with a strong injector cleaner and then sampled.

---

Gotta call you on the logic, sorry. Your statement implies two things: (1) that "weird" Redline UOAs occur because there is something strange about Redline users, in that they apparently all, magically, subconsiously, feel driven to run Redline only after using an unusually large dose of injector cleaner thereby skewing the UOA. They only do this when running Redline, and not any other oils they run, hence the UOAs of those oils aren't as weird as the Redline UOAs. (2) Every other single oil is so utterly inferior to Redline, that Redline must "scavenge" the horrible damage done by those other oils, and that damage previously done shows up in Redline UOAs. Nevermind that the average Redline user is graduating from oils like Mobil 1, Royal Purple, Amsoil, or some other equally exotic animal: not Redline, to be sure, but hardly the 99-cent drugstore-bought variety of oil changed only at 15,000-mile intervals that would require the extensive cleaning we're talking about here.

I think there are two, and only two possibilities: Redline's chemistry is exotic in a way that may be detrimental to the average engine, or it is exotic in a way that renders the normal interpretation of UOAs useless, or some combination thereof.

 

[cweed]

dont you know, redline users are freaks

maybe they just want to take the best care of their cars so they put in $7 oil in and put 4 injector cleaners per tankful (i should shut up, ive done that a couple times).... All kidding aside, I do think that your two points on Redline is what gives it average results, I think Terry would agree on the exotic issue skewing results....

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I do want to take good care of the cars...but I know that there is only so much you can do.

I have seen posts in which someone has used BG44 and was advised by Terry Dyson to avoid this and stick to Redline SL-1.

I have also read posts in which the scavenging effect has been discussed

Here's the results of a quick search...sorry for the lengthy post

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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003195#000000

TooSlick

Member # 227
Here's my take on Redline, based on the results I've seen to date and a fair amount of experience with synthetic lubes:

Strong Points:

1) Probably the best shear stability of any multrgrade I've seen - even the 5w-40 and 10w-40 grades simply don't shear. If you look at the spec sheets, it's easy to figure out why.

2) Grade for grade, lower oil consumption than Mobil 1 where this is an issue. This is a function of the relatively high, HT/HS viscosity and very low Noack numbers.

3) Excellent engine cleanliness, even compared to other synthetic lubes. You can see this in the oil analysis results, if you know what to look for.

4) "Hard" metal wear, specifically iron wear is generally very good. I believe the additive chemistry is highly resistant to corrosive wear.

Weak Points:

1) Soft metal wear - the additive chemistry is pretty aggressive and Pb/Cu/Sn levels tend to be higher than for other top tier synthetics. I think the very high level of moly is somewhat responsible for this.

2) Below average TBN retention makes the product unsuitable for extended drain use in many cases.

3) Basestock and additive chemistry is pretty unique, so you really want to carry some on long trips if your engine burns oil.

4) Cost/Availability - of course you can say the same for the Amsoil Series 2000 formulations.

I think Redline is well suited to specific applications where it's unique properties can be put to use. These include application like wet clutch motorcycles and turbos that tend to shear oil. It is also a good candidate for problem engines like the V-6 toyota and 2.4L Nissan four cylinder that tend to beat up the oil and form sludge/varnish deposits. For extended drain applications in normal driving, I believe Amsoil or Mobil 1 are better choices for most folks.


TooSlick

Member # 227
Jay,

Sort of a process of elimination I suppose ....

There is some sort of chemical reaction the first 1-2 times Redline is used where the basestock and/or additive chemistry interacts with these softer bearing surfaces and probably forms some a sacrifical metallic oxide layer. In cases where the drain interval has been overextended the bearing wear goes up noticably, so something is turning acidic and causing corrosive wear.

Of course, I could be totally wrong and it's the specific type of esters Redline uses that are causing this. That would be my other educated guess.

.............

MolaKule

Member # 59


quote:3) Excellent engine cleanliness, even compared to other synthetic lubes. You can see this in the oil analysis results, if you know what to look for.

I think the cleanliness AND the soft metals issue are one and the same. The DD levels are low for a synthetic oil and I believe it's because of the high ester content in RL, which make very good scavengers. I do not think the esters are attacking any soft metals, just cleaning the surfaces of bearings, due to their high polar affinity to metals.

I do agree that RL's tbn and tbn retention could be better given the price. I think their calcium levels need to be about 1.5 times more than current levels.


As far the cleaning effect/RL and softmetals - I really cling to my theory similarly when going to non-Mo synthetic from a high Mo oil - The AW plastizied films are removed from bearing surfaces by the new oil along with surface atoms -hence these show up as increased (soft) metals in UOA and decreased TBN (from the organo/thio) - This is temporary and not necessarily harmful, the new high priced oil will lay down it's own AW film when the cleaning "phase" is over.

--------

"But your analysis makes a good case that RL is taking a bad rap on its UOAs for doing a superb job of clean-up inside the engine and for laying down the all-important protective coat of moly."

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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000611#000000

Yes, nice report. Oil stayed in grade as it should! [Big Grin] Wear was pretty good too at around 1PPM per 1,000 miles. I've seen better iron and aluminum numbers ... but not in a turbo ... and you can't do too much better than 1PPM of lead after all that time. [Cheers!]

With a TBN of 5 you could go longer ... but I wouldn't, not too much unless you really don't care too much about the car.

I guess it's just my way of thinking. After 7,500 miles, that oil & filter really don't owe you anything. Going longer between changes is just asking for sludge/crud to build up and that's pricey and/or difficult to get rid of when it takes hold of a motor.

Best to drain and refill with fresh before you start to have trouble. [Wink]

--- Bror Jace

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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000238#000000

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http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=006165#000007

much as I love GC I can't dismiss the fact that he is so positive about this oil! [I dont know]

Terry (Dyson) has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

 

[Marty]

ekrampitzjr:

>

All Proof was originally up in Wisconsin, and then in Florida, and then disappeared. The company name was "ENOCA". They had Smokey Yunick on the payroll and he used in a race car - I'm at my office and don't have access to my files - which I believe was an Indy car. His comments, reported in a Popular Mechanics article which I have in my files, were that the honing marks were still in the cylinder at the end of the race.

The base stock was a polyol ester. The viscosity was on the high end - 10W-50 or so (I have an unopened can of it on my shelf I can check tonight).

As with all polyol esters it had very high film strength and a very high flash point. It was also **** on seals and none too good on preventing rust. It just wasn't a good replacement for mineral oil for day-to-day use which requires good seal compatibility and dealing with a lot of condensation.

 

[kev99sl]

quote:

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Terry (Dyson) has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week. [/QB]

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I'm not claiming that Redline is a bad oil, necessarily, just that "scavenging" and the use of injector cleaner doesn't explain its analysis numbers, particularly when those numbers seem to consistently occur over several oil changes in the same application. On the other hand, no one here seems to run any oil longer than 6 or so intervals, so it's hard to get an accurate gauge. If I could afford it, I'd run it myself. In fact, I did when I received a free case not too long ago.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to relying on UOAs to determine the quality of an oil. I've never had one done myself. I have nothing against them, per se. As I said in a thread about magnetic drain plugs, there's just something about me, everyone in my family, and nearly every single person I know running all of our vehicles well past 175,000 miles with just regular oil changes that hasn't convinced me I need one. But then, we could just be lucky!

 

[TallPaul]

Why not the best of both worlds: 1 quart of Redline and 4 Mobil 1?

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

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Originally posted by kev99sl:

quote:

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Terry (Dyson) has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

---

I'm not claiming that Redline is a bad oil, necessarily, just that "scavenging" and the use of injector cleaner doesn't explain its analysis numbers, particularly when those numbers seem to consistently occur over several oil changes in the same application. On the other hand, no one here seems to run any oil longer than 6 or so intervals, so it's hard to get an accurate gauge. If I could afford it, I'd run it myself. In fact, I did when I received a free case not too long ago.

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to relying on UOAs to determine the quality of an oil. I've never had one done myself. I have nothing against them, per se. As I said in a thread about magnetic drain plugs, there's just something about me, everyone in my family, and nearly every single person I know running all of our vehicles well past 175,000 miles with just regular oil changes that hasn't convinced me I need one. But then, we could just be lucky! [/QB]

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I have to agree with you about convehtional oils and regular oil changes....especially now that so many of of the affordable new 'conventional' oils are anything but conventional.


As many of the UPA's show the oils like Motorcraft, Chevron Supreme, Conoco ClearBlend, and even Castrol GTX, and Pennzoil are great oils at low cost.

I've run lots of cars to 250,000 / 300,000 miles on good name brand conventional higher viscosity multigrade oils every 3000 miles. (this is when I before I had a large family and lots of cars and drivers but the engines did get 'tired'... less power / lower fuel economy)

But what do you do when the engine is modified or driven fairly hard?

One option is to use a better oil...like Redline, Mobil 1, Amsoil Series 2000 or 3000, Castrol Syntec etc.

And what do you do if you have multiple drivers and many vehicles, and you want longer drain intervals and less oil loss? Again we switch to syntetic oils that have better additives and less evaporation.

I'd have to say that most of the time I check my other cars, the oil is down a quart ...or more. This is especially true of the cars my kid's friends drive.

With Mobil 1 and especially with Redline I never have this problem with our family cars.

That alone makes the Redline or Mobil 1 a good choice ...at least for me.

I think that I could get OK results with any name brand oil with the correct approvals and viscosity.

But I'm looking for the optimal results for my driving conditions and ownership goals.

 

[buster]

quote:

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I'm not claiming that Redline is a bad oil, necessarily, just that "scavenging" and the use of injector cleaner doesn't explain its analysis numbers, particularly when those numbers seem to consistently occur over several oil changes in the same application. On the other hand, no one here seems to run any oil longer than 6 or so intervals, so it's hard to get an accurate gauge. If I could afford it, I'd run it myself. In fact, I did when I received a free case not too long ago.

---

I do agree that the scavenging/cleaning theory is used to much in explaining poor RL UOA's. RL has it's good and bad, like many oils. There has been some talk about the negative aspects of a mostly POE based oil and levels of Moly being used. Corrosion and high Pb metals that often don't go away after repeated use, have me questioning RL at times. RL excells in shear strength due to it's high POE content vs the other PAO synthetics like M1/Amsoil etc. For racing this is ideal but as we've seen, Mobil 1/Amsoil etc. all do an excellent job as well. All of these things are "theories" though, and no one knows for sure exactly how good RL is. If I were to strictly base it on BITOG UOAs, I'd say RL is average to below average at best. We've also seen reports where Mobil 1 outperformed RL and wear metals dropped significantly after switching back to M1 from RL. Again though, is is wear we are seeing with RL or scavenged metals? Don't know....

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Terry (Dyson) has changed all his vehicles over to Redline, thats good enough for me, I'd take that over a UOA any day of the week.

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Not all of his vehicles. I know at least one of them is running GC 0w30 right now.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

I tried to make a crude chart of 2.5cyl late model Subarus


………......A……….....B……….....C……….....D……….....E
………M1 10w-30~M1 10w-30MIX~M1 10W-30~T200010W-30~RL5w-40
………..3.5K………..6.3K………..6.3K………..5.7k………..8k

Copper:1 ………..5 ………..0 ………..1………..5
Iron:...5 ………..12 ……….. 11 ………..5………..6
Chrome:.0 ………..2……….. 1 ………..0………..1
Lead:...2 ………..7 ……….. 5 ………..3………..3
Aluminum:2………..7 ……….. 3 ………..3………..2
Silicon:4……….. 11………..0 ………..5………..26
Molybdenum:79………..44 ……….. 75………..107………..447
Sodium:.0………..22 ………..17 ………..5………..27
Tin:....0……….. 6………..2………..1………..0
Nickel:.0 ………..0 ……….. 0 ………..2………..0
Zinc:...1157………..1238 ………..1153 ………..770………..1080
Silver:.0………..0 ………..0………..0………..0
Potassium:0………..0 ………..2 ………..0………..3
Water: ..NEG………..NEG………..NEG………..NEG………..NEG
Anti-Freeze:NEG………..NEG ………..NEG………..NEG………..NEG
Fuel Dilution: Viscosity @100Celsius:9.69 …11.06 …9.65 …9.2……….SUS70.5= 12.8
TBN:5.863. ………..28………..6 ………..5………..pending


A=Vehicle: '00 Subaru Outback Wagon AWD with AT and 2.5l engine. Puchased used in Oct'02 at 12,375 miles.
Oil: Mobile 1 SS 10wt/30 installed 12Dec'02 at 14,335 miles, previous oil is unknown. Factory recommended oil is 5wt/30. Sump capacity is 4.2qts.
Oil Filter: OEM, made by Purolator, installed same time as oil, previous filter is unknown.
Air Filter: OEM, I presume.
Miles on Sample: 3,503.
Miles on Vehicle at Sample: 17,838


B=Vehicle is a base model 2000 Subaru Outback Wagon with automatic transmission and 33750 miles.

This OCI history:
24Nov'03, changed oil and oil filter OEM with 3 1/2qts. Mobil 1 SS 10w30, 1qt. Amsoil S3K 5w30 and 4oz. Auto-RX...Used up all my stock of oil.
27Nov'03, changed air filter with OEM.
2Apr'04, at 3933 oil miles, changed oil filter OEM and allowing for the old and new filter drained enough oil to add 1qt. Mobil T&SUV 5w40...Since this was a winter run, I decided to change OF and try to replensish the additive package.
1May'04 added 4oz. LC...Just got it.
Used 2oz Lucas UCL in gas about once a month.
No other make-up added and still in service.


C=Sample Date: 15/12/2003
Car: Subaru Outback 2000
Engine: 2.5 SOHC Gas
Engine Mileage: approx. 78000km
Oil Brand: Mobil 1 10W30 SS
Mileage on Oil: approx. 10000km
Makeup Oil Added: 0


D=Sample Date: 08/01/2003


Car: Subaru Outback 2000
Engine: 2.5 SOHC Gas
Engine Mileage: approx. 67500km
Oil Brand: Tech2000 10W30 Synthetic
Mileage on Oil: approx. 9000km
Makeup Oil Added: 0


E= 2003 Subaru Outback 2.5Liter 4 cyl 5sp manual

Redline 5W-40 8K OIC
Makeup oil = 0

 

[sprintman]

So you moved to RL 5W40 eh? Very interesting as I was aiming to run a 50/50 RL 5W30 5W40 mix soon in same 2000 Outback 2.5 manual. I currently have 75W90NS in the trans and 75W90 in the diff with D4ATF in the p/s. May have to run the straight 5W40 after seeing these UOA's. Nice post...steve

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
So you moved to RL 5W40 eh? Very interesting as I was aiming to run a 50/50 RL 5W30 5W40 mix soon in same 2000 Outback 2.5 manual. I currently have 75W90NS in the trans and 75W90 in the diff with D4ATF in the p/s. May have to run the straight 5W40 after seeing these UOA's. Nice post...steve

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Thanks!

I thought I needed the 5W-40 because of the high rev full throttle driving...but I will run 5W-30 in the winter since I have a case left.

After that I think I'll use Redline 5W-20 in the Honda and 5W-40 in the Subaru.

My Mobil 1 choices are 0W-20 and 0W-40 respectively.

 

[Thatwouldbegreat]

quote:

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Originally posted by sprintman:
So you moved to RL 5W40 eh? Very interesting as I was aiming to run a 50/50 RL 5W30 5W40 mix soon in same 2000 Outback 2.5 manual. I currently have 75W90NS in the trans and 75W90 in the diff with D4ATF in the p/s. May have to run the straight 5W40 after seeing these UOA's. Nice post...steve

---

I have 75W-90ns in the transaxle, and 75W-90 in the diff.

I use Redline Complete Fuel System Cleaner, but now I'll have to get some Redline D4ATF for the power steering!

Coolant will stay Subaru, or maybe Zerex G-05...I'm gunshy after being screwed by Havoline Dex Cool.

 

[sprintman]

Well if as you say you do high rev full throttle driving why not try my RL 50/50 blend in the Winter and put that UOA up alongside your others? Could be a good combo for a Vail winter?