Redline—has anyone figured this stuff out?

[Patman]

I know I've posted this link a lot, and I know it's just one UOA, but it's still the best UOA on here, and it's in a sludge monster Toyota no less!

Redline 5w30:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000340

 

[Leo]

I am not baggin Redline straight out, but I believe there is no clear cut answer whether they truely are better than the competition in your average car. Sure on paper they seem the best, but good specs dont neccesarily mean good results. I believe RL really show their colours in hard driven applications, like my car which produces 150hp/L, not your average grocery hauler/highway cruiser.

Molakule, The reason I didnt not source my comments is because we're not allowed to post URLs outside this website. And I know what I read, so dont say what I read was incorrect. If you want the URLs, then PM me, np!

Btw, I dont want to start an argument over RL vs everyone else, just posting my opinion. Nevertheless I still wouldnt mind giving their oils a shot! Just thinking twice about Water Wetter etc.

 

[Dr. T]

2 questions:

1. Does anyone know of a European-sourced/manufactured Polyol ester based oil? ie. Euro. equiv. of RL?

2. Where's the best priced Redline in Toronto??

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Dr. T:
2 questions:

1. Does anyone know of a European-sourced/manufactured Polyol ester based oil? ie. Euro. equiv. of RL?

2. Where's the best priced Redline in Toronto??

---

Check your PMs.

 

[Bror Jace]

I think JohnBrowning is correct. People who use Red Line are likely to run their car(s) the hardest. They are not a fair sample population. And in those cases even seemingly “mediocre” test results are an accomplishment. And having said that, we’ve seen some really good Red Line UOA results here as well, that Toyota Sienna Patman references being the best example to date ... possibly the best UOA on this board.

As for Water Wetter, I ran this in my Honda Civic with the same coolant for 6 YEARS.

When I had the timing belt (& water pump) changed, the was coolant drained and it still looked brand new. If others are getting sludge in their coolant bottles, it’s from a leaky headgasket or some other problem, not the Water Wetter.

Of course, I don’t have any evidence that it was doing anything good in my car, I just bought a bottle and split it between several small-capacity cooling systems as a preventative.

As for MTL, Bogatyr and I have used this in Integra and Civic trannies for over a half million miles combined. No problems with any of the trannies … even as they approached 200,000 miles. The elimination of cold-weather graunch alone has to reduce some of the wear the tranny would normally be experiencing with a factory fluid. The Civic Coupe I just sold still shifted like brand new at 100,000 miles and I shifted like it was nobody’s business every d@mn day I drove it. Based on my experience with the Hondas, I’ll be using a mixture of MTL and MT-90 in my ‘03 Nissan Sentra’s 6-speed. It calls for some mysterious 75W85 oil and can’t think of a better choice than a blend of the Red Line fluids (70W80 MTL and 75W90 MT-90).

Leo, I’m guessing what you’ve read about MTL comes from “Mista Bone,” a well known Honda tuner on the use.net forums. I think he’s a very knowledgeable guy but kids who abuse their cars bring them to him. He knocks them apart and finds torn up trannies … and blames the MTL many are using. He’s been knocking the stuff for years and I think it’s either a habit he’s unwilling to break or it’s something personal.

His latest take is that the Red Line tranny fluids dissolve some sort of plastic seal in the RSX tranny. I can’t say much about this … but Honda should only put oil-resistant seals in their boxes and if something gets dissolved when using a common aftermarket fluid, it’s the manufacturer’s fault. If I had an RSX, I’d use MTL in it based on my decade of previous positive experience with it in Hondas/Acuras.

I used Red Line engine oils in my Civic over a year ago but a coolant leak (verified) skewed the results a bit. I will be switching to Schaffer Supreme later this summer at around 7,000 miles (3rd change) and will start doing UOAs. Next year I will give Red Line another try, hopefully a few runs in a row, ~6,000 miles each.

For you folks outside the United States who think that Red Line is dreadfully overpriced, you might be right ... but even then it’s probably a distributor and/or tax issue and not Red Line’s fault directly. Even though I like their products a great deal, I doubt I’d pay over $8 per quart for anything other than their gear oils. But fortunately, I live the United States and at $8 per quart, it might only cost me an extra $20-30 per year to run Red Line in my engine … which is peanuts compared to the overall cost of operating a car for the same period of time.

--- Bror Jace

 

[Dr. T]

$8 seems fair. From my understanding, TWS 10-60 is $9U.S...I can get this for $11Can...but $17 is a far cry from $8.

Bror, why would you not use their gear oils???

 

[Bror Jace]

Dr. T, you either misunderstood what I said or I was not clear enough. Even at looney-toons prices, I'd still use their gear oils because the quantities (sumps) are generally lower and the drain intervals are much, much longer.

Even an extravagant cost does not hurt so much over the years with most gear oil applications.

--- Bror Jace

 

[porterdog]

Here's something that I've been thinking about Redline lately; I just put it all together based on things I learned here, something that Bob said, and some customer testimonials on the Redline website.

Redline might well be specifically engineered to prevent major damage in the event of a catastrophic oiling system failure. In support of this I offer the following:

Huge amounts of moly, a well known additive designed for protection in the event of actual metal to metal contact.

Large amounts of "cling". Recall Bob's post on gear oil climbing and frothing wherein he said,

"The redline heavy shock gear oil, Very interesting stuff. It started to climb over the first gear when started but quickly dropped. Reason I believe it did this was because of the thickness it has when cold. BUT... This stuff is like paint. When it touches a spot, it's there. It did not come off, it did not run, it stayed where it hit. To clean my machine so I could even get it out there, I had to flush it out 5 times!."

[I realize that's gear oil and we're speaking of engine oil, but there are a couple customer testimonials for gear/engine oils involving loss of all fluid and finding no problems after operation. Cling!]

Can you have fair-good performance under normal conditions (adequate flow) and excellent performance under marginal conditions? Is this what Redline is designed to do? Hmmmm....

Robert

 

[Leo]

Actually the reports about MTL I heard were from Nissan and Mazda Miata forums

But I dont trust everything I read, just take it with a grain of salt. There is custom gearbox manufacturer that sell Redline products in the city I live. They swear by Redline. They say they doesnt offer any warranty on boxes/gearsets unless you use Redline. Now thats confidence, and at $5000-10000 a gearbox, Im sure they knows what they're on about..

But I'm glad you posted Bror Jace, cos I was thinking surely RL wouldnt have put such products out on the market if they were dodge!

Perhaps the sludge was caused from incompatibilties with a minority of coolants, even tho RL says its 100% compatible. Ah well. =)

porterdog, I think your on the right track, cos on the RL website testimonials, they say that bearings/other parts last alot longer in drag racing applications. I reckon those bearings being under so much stress need as much anti-wear addatives as you can get!! And thats the RL difference!

 

[MolaKule]

quote:

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From Leo,
Molakule, The reason I didnt not source my comments is because we're not allowed to post URLs outside this website. And I know what I read, so dont say what I read was incorrect. If you want the URLs, then PM me, np!

---

Thanks for the clarification Leo. And I think Patman made a good point as well.

The point I was attempting to make was that there are different kinds of info on the web: testing data (UOA's), anecdotal information, interpretation, third-party comments (he said she heard him say...).


BTW,

I have sent in a sample of Redline 10W30 for analysis and will post it here. My plans are to use Chevron Supreme 10W30 dino in the next run and attempt to duplicate some of the results from others on the board using the same oil and engine in the Nissan K24DE engine.

I will then compare cost vs. performance and board members can draw then draw their own conclusions. This may take the rest of the summer to complete, so don't expect instant gratification!

 

[Dr. T]

right...and if their "10-40 produces a film thickness 25% thicker than a petroleum 20-50" why do they need so much moly?

 

[MolaKule]

Redline uses higher base viscosity polyol type esters.

They are using some 12.2, 14.0 cSt and 17.5 cSt hindered polyol esters which have - 40 F, -30 F, and - 20 F pour points, respectively (before additives), along with a few lighter viscosity polyols, to achieve low volatilities of about 5.5% on the average. Their pour points average about -46 F.

You always balance pour point and pumpability with volatility and oxidation stability.

 

[MolaKule]

Dr. T,

"right...and if their "10-40 produces a film thickness 25% thicker than a petroleum 20-50" why do they need so much moly?"

They want plenty of boundary lubrication (three tier protection) under high loads and heat when the hydrodynamic film breaks in these situations.

They are not saying the film won't break under extreme situations, just that on the average the synthetic's film is 25% thicker than is a mineral oil of the same viscosity.

Edit: I am not slamming Castrol's German Syntec in 0W30, as it may prove out to be a great oil, but all we have seen so far is specs and VOA's. I am sure Redline is aware of Syntec's entry and is doing everything chemically and tribologically to make sure they stay one step ahead of Castrol. Their market share is at stake.

The looming question is, will Castrol's [German] Syntec show the same UOA's as Redline's oil (say 10W30) under the same driving conditions?

[ July 07, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

 

[Dr. T]

Molacule, is this the reason (high Moly) why RL oils are not API cert. (just as Amsoil's high ZDDP content)??

 

[Bror Jace]

Porterdog, I don’t think the “cling” argument applies to motor oils like it does to gear oil. I just think they are two different animals. And if Red Line’s gear oils get their cling from “bright stock” (super-thick petroleum) it only works at fairly low operating temperatures to get the lube in place quickly at start-up. At higher temps this effect diminishes … and along with it the extra hydrodynamic drag. And heck, Red Line does not even use moly in their MTL/MT-90.

Leo, I’m pretty sure most Mazda and Nissan manual gearbox applications call for a thicker oil than the 70W80 MTL. So, if owners used MTL in those applications, I’m not surprised some had wear problems. There was a Miata driver here who had used MTL briefly and regretted it. I believe he said his toy called for a 75W90 so he should have used MT-90 instead.

’Kule, looking forward to your results.

Dr. T: “… if their ‘10W40 produces a film thickness 25% thicker than a petroleum 20W50,’ why do they need so much moly?”

I think the word “need” is open to interpretation here. For the average engine which is rarely pushed to extremes (towing, taggin’ the redline, etc …) a little moly (say, under 100PPM) plating up gradually is probably sufficient for general wear prevention. Why put in more moly than you have to … especially in a price competitive market like OTC oils?

However, if you cater to the high-performance crowd who are, more often than not, gonna drive the snot out of their engines, why not put in extra moly to handle the high, high loads and metal-to-metal contact which is sure to occur? I know Bob says that you can upset the balance of the oil and promote oxidation but it’s not clear that Red Line has this problem.

“Does anyone know of a European-sourced/manufactured Polyol ester based oil? ie. Euro. equiv. of RL?”

You might want to check out Motul. Newer formulations are cropping up all over the place, too. I think that in North America, Motul is drastically overpriced, especially with Red Line available for a few bucks less per quart.

--- Bror Jace

 

[MolaKule]

I don't think moly has anything to do with it.

First of all, the API sets minimum standards in a politcially charged atmosphere where there are better speced synthetic and dino oils than the API minimums. So why pay some Petroleum institute to certify your synthetic oil?

On a personal note, I wouldn't go to the API for certification in a gazillion years even if I had the most trusted and best performing oil in the world.

Secondly, for smaller blenders and formulators, the cost for certification is prohibitive. It is more economically feasible to have your oils tested with outside testing labs and to keep the results for proof that your oils meet or exceed the API minimums. And if you don't have a large advertising budget, you hope that "word-of-mouth" will help you sell your product.

 

[MolaKule]

European Poloyl esters? Sure, they have to compete with and supply military engine
lubes as well.

Ketjenlube - Germany

Motul - French

BP - British

Exxon/Mobil - European Operations

and there may be others.

Hatco is the larget external supplier of synthetic base oils, most of them polyol esters.

 

[mojo]

I think this certification of motor oils by the API process is being misunderstood. Granted, the API/SAE/ASTM limits for any service classification are set at the minimum as that sets the minimum level of performance that is needed and endorsed by the OEMs. Having said that, we all understand that suppliers can formulate oils to have performance higher than the minimums. Now, the issue is whether the supplier will change a particular ingredient because of cost differentials, change in raw materials/suppliers, ingredients no longer being manufactured, etc. When that occurs, who checks to see whether the manufacturer after making the change or changes goes back to make sure that the engine testing data has not been altered because of the change in ingredients. Sometimes, one cannot completely trust manufacturers as their bottom line is really profit. This is why the military established a qualification process which is what the API process was patterned after. Once a formulation is approved as meeting all the engine and laboratory tests, its formulation is more or less locked in by a testing protocol (i.e., qualification acceptance tests) that would show if one or more of the ingredients have been intentionally or inadvertently changed. When a contract is award to a company, its product being supplied must comply with the previously established qualification acceptance testing results which are provided to the procuring agency. In that way, the quality inspectors can quickly see whether a previously approved product had undergone some unauthorized change that may or may not impact the resultant performance.

 

[buster]

quote:

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I am sure Redline is aware of Syntec's entry and is doing everything chemically and tribologically to make sure they stay one step ahead of Castrol. Their market share is at stake.

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Mk, are you refering to Castrol's R oils? I don't see where Castrol is in Redline's market. Granted they all are in the macro market, but Redline is primarily used as a racing oil.

 

[FowVay]

I use MT-90 in the transaxle of my Volkswagen Golf. Today I changed the fluid after a long trip back from West Virginia. I was surprised at the brown deposits that were on the drain plug and fill plug of my transaxle. I initially put MT-90 in my transaxle when it had 60,000 miles on it. The transaxle has 110,000 today so the MT-90 had been in there for the past 50,000 miles. Also, there was a black residue in the bottles of the new MT-90 after they were drained.

It has been my belief that Redline doesn't use moly in their transmission oils so I wonder what the deposits were in the bottle and why I had brown deposits on my drain/fill plug.