Question about engine displacement

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Awesome read, thanks for that, and for putting it in layman's terms that I can understand -- I'm now going down the bore and stroke rabbit hole. My next question would be where did the I6 go since it seemed to be ideal, but I understand there are other factors at play in engine manufacturing and design than durability (much to my dismay).
Other than some Volvo’s, they’re pretty much exclusively found in RWD or RWD based AWD vehicles. Add in that most people think said cars will immediately murder you if you attempt to drive them in anything that isn’t a warm, dry summer day and the fact they’re either crammed into an engine compartment (Volvo) or need a relatively long hood and you end up with a sea of almost identical V6’s and 4 bangers.
 
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Awesome read, thanks for that, and for putting it in layman's terms that I can understand -- I'm now going down the bore and stroke rabbit hole. My next question would be where did the I6 go since it seemed to be ideal, but I understand there are other factors at play in engine manufacturing and design than durability (much to my dismay).

Reducing friction and reciprocating mass is essential in meeting fuel economy and emmissions targets.
 
My guess is at some point you start to get diminishing returns as you increase cylinder size.
 
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Awesome read, thanks for that, and for putting it in layman's terms that I can understand -- I'm now going down the bore and stroke rabbit hole. My next question would be where did the I6 go since it seemed to be ideal, but I understand there are other factors at play in engine manufacturing and design than durability (much to my dismay).
I6 is extremely durable. It's packaging and cost. I6 takes up a lot of space. I4 is all about fuel efficiency and low cost. V6 is shorter than an I6 so it works well with a FWD drivetrain which overall lowers production costs.

Mercedes Benz brought back an I6 and Mazada has developed their first. I imagine they're temporary replacements for V8's in hybrid setups. BMW probably has the longest run of using the I6. It has set them apart for decades. I've been driving for decades and aside from a short stint with an I4 (VW) I've always had an I6 (Ford, Jeep, BMW). I absolutely love the smoothness and simplicity.
 
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Awesome read, thanks for that, and for putting it in layman's terms that I can understand -- I'm now going down the bore and stroke rabbit hole. My next question would be where did the I6 go since it seemed to be ideal, but I understand there are other factors at play in engine manufacturing and design than durability (much to my dismay).
BMW is still using I6's, and has forever. The base and hybrid engine in the X5 for example is an I6. Mercedes is also using them. They are naturally extremely smooth, so a very good fit for a vehicle that sells itself as being "luxury".

The issue with I6's is that they are LONG. So, packaging becomes an issue. This is the 3.0L I6 in my sister's 330i:
338iengine01.jpg


Which is why you don't see more of them.
 
For automotive engines running at higher rpm, with one spark plug per cylinder as was the norm, a bore of about 4" or 100 mm is the limit for complete fuel combustion during the power stroke. With a few engineering tricks, some big-block V-8s went a little larger, but those engines were fuel hogs. Example: the Chevrolet 454 had a bore of 4.25". In street engines since World War II, few auto engines have gone much above 4".
Yes, there are few modern exceptions, including the 6.4L HEMI, which has a 4.09" bore. I know you will say it has dual ignition, which it does, but the reason for that is the combustion chamber design, which is why its smaller bore sibling also has it, which is necessary for those engines on order to achieve acceptable emissions.

Historically, one of the reasons for the larger bores was to decrease valve shrouding on 2V wedge/quench chamber designs. Engines like the Chevy 305 were limited in valve size, and subsequently head flow, due to this. The aforementioned 454 (like the Ford Cleveland) used canted valve heads to improve flow even further. With a hemispherical chamber, shrouding is less of an issue, same with pent-roof, which had a tendency to be fitted with multiple valves for intake and exhaust to improve flow, reduce valvetrain weight/spring pressure and increase efficiency.

With a pent roof design, bore size became much less important, which is why most SOHC and DOHC mills have smaller bores. They are more efficient, less swept ring area and still able to move plenty of air.
To be able to rev, larger engines have to limit stroke. They should be oversquare, meaning the bore is larger than the stroke. For low-speed torque in a lower-revving engine, a longer stroke is better. Most small four-cylinders are undersquare, meaning the stroke is larger than the bore.
Of course worth mentioning is that many of these small four cylinder engines can really rev, like Honda's S2000 engine, which of course spun to the moon, was originally almost square, and then became slightly undersquare:
F20C: 87mm bore, 84mm stroke
F21C: 87mm bore, 90.7mm stroke

Ford's Modular is another thats very close to square in some configurations with the reasonably rev-happy 4.6L DOHC mill being 3.552" bore, 3.543" stroke, the 5.0L Coyote being 3.63" bore, 3.65" stroke (slightly undersquare), while the flat-plane Voodoo engine is 3.70" bore, 3.66" stroke (slightly oversquare).

On the other end of the spectrum, the old Windsor engines like the 302 were quite oversquare with that particular engine having a 4.0" bore, 3.0" stroke.

Of course there are exceptions (even if we are just talking exclusively racing). The huge Pro Stock Mountain Motor engines are over 800ci. The Kaase Ford mill for example achieves 830ci with a 4.77" bore and 5.8" stroke (quite undersquare) and these rev quite high.
For a given displacement, with the above limitations in mind, fewer cylinders are better because of friction loss through rings and gearings. Given a choice between a 5.0 liter straight-6 and a 5.0-liter V-8, the six will be a better choice for economy. When the bore exceeds the magic 4" limit, though, it's time to go to more cylinders.
While the 8 can be more oversquare and will tend to make more power, which is why BMW bumped up to a V8, and later V10 in the M5 and M6 cars (both 5.0L) from the base I6's, even though they had some very capable (but smaller displacement I6's in cars like the M3.
Certain engine configurations cannot be completely balanced. These include any configuration with fewer than 6 cylinders. An inline-4, as mentioned, can have primary balance, but secondary imbalances cannot be eliminated, and the same is true for boxer-4s. An inline-6 is ideal, and for years Rolls-Royce used this type of engine. It isn't coincidence that the Chevrolet, Ford, and Chrysler I-6 engines are among those automakers' best and most durable.
Yes, and another thing worth mentioning is that these I6 engines also have more mains/crank journals. The Ford 300 I6 had 7 whereas your typical V8 has 5.
A 90° V-8 has primary balance with only a minor secondary imbalance. A 60° or 120° V-12 is another ideal configuration. A V-6 has significant secondary imbalances. All of this is a gross simplification, so please don't shoot the messenger. The recent Ford 6.8-liter and Dodge 8.0-liter V-10s ideally should have been 72°, but were 90° to be able to use existing tooling, and tricks were required to balance these engines.

Huge slow-running diesels don't have to worry about a lot of these factors. A gigantic 2-stroke diesel propelling a ship is running at only a few hundred rpm at most.

Hope this helps the OP.
(y) Very well articulated!
 
It's still the largest marine engine by volume. Now if they could just find a Mr. Fusion, I guess they wouldn't need a behemoth engine.
Piston engine, certainly, not sure how one measures turbine displacement or if it even is, I was just poking fun, the nuke powered craft are next level.
 
Piston engine, certainly, not sure how one measures turbine displacement or if it even is, I was just poking fun, the nuke powered craft are next level.

My understanding is that the nuclear reactor in a Los Angeles Class sub is about the size of a basketball, but the reactor room has to be pretty big to support all the other stuff.

Even then it's not 1.21 gigawatts. Somehow Mr. Fusion can handle it.

back-to-future-ii-mr-fusion-home-energy-reactor-replica-xl.jpg
 
I was going to say that the engine application has a lot to do with this discussion... ekrampitzjr put it all in words very nicely.
Think sports car vs farm tractor, and everywhere in between: different operating speeds, compression ratios, power and torque curves, etc.
 
Volvo(2.9l) and Daewoo(2.5l) made inline 6 fwd cars for a while, and the packaging doesn't look all that terrible really from this angle, but I've never worked on one. They came in mid-size wider cars so I guess it helps.

2010-Chevrolet-Epica-20-6-Cylinder-X20D1-Lbm.jpg
 
my 968 is 3l 4.1 inch bore and 3.5 inch stroke.

It has a balance shaft of course. It idles rough but I think the idle circuit needs work. It likes to rev but redline is not that high. It's a fun engine.
 
My understanding is that the nuclear reactor in a Los Angeles Class sub is about the size of a basketball, but the reactor room has to be pretty big to support all the other stuff.

Even then it's not 1.21 gigawatts. Somehow Mr. Fusion can handle it.

back-to-future-ii-mr-fusion-home-energy-reactor-replica-xl.jpg

Yes, Mr. Fusion is comparable to the AP1000, lol.

I've never seen a naval reactor, but the A1B in the Ford-Class carrier is 700MWth, and it has two of them, so 1,400MWth. Using rough powerplant efficiency (I'm sure it is more efficient than that) we are looking at ~438MWe, or 587,000HP.
 
This only applies to in-line 6 cylinder engines, which are naturally balanced, and by extension, V12's. That's why they were so popular in certain applications, particularly large displacement ones like OTR trucks. Each cylinder fires 120 degrees from the next resulting in two perfect rotations with the firing of all cylinders. This cancels out harmonics and is what makes them so smooth.

A 4-cylinder is not naturally balanced, neither are V8's, V6's...etc. But when you have more cylinders it makes that less apparent. That's why we have harmonic balancers, balance shafts...etc.
This^^^^^. Big Picture is the greater the displacement per cylinder; the more the engine vibration potential.
 
Lycoming has an IO-390 6.37 liter 4 cylinder. So they do exist but in torque heavy required applications.
 
Yes, Mr. Fusion is comparable to the AP1000, lol.

I've never seen a naval reactor, but the A1B in the Ford-Class carrier is 700MWth, and it has two of them, so 1,400MWth. Using rough powerplant efficiency (I'm sure it is more efficient than that) we are looking at ~438MWe, or 587,000HP.
That is why he was using plutonium before he got the Mr. Fusion. Not to pile on this fictional thing but Doc had the Plutonium reactor and then the Mr. Fusion for the time machine part but never thought to use a little bit of that power to move the car instead of using the crappy power train of the delorian? I do realize the that was a moot point at the mr fusion point as it could fly.
 
Packaging
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Awesome read, thanks for that, and for putting it in layman's terms that I can understand -- I'm now going down the bore and stroke rabbit hole. My next question would be where did the I6 go since it seemed to be ideal, but I understand there are other factors at play in engine manufacturing and design than durability (much to my dismay).
I believe the I6 has seen less use due to packaging constraints. Sideways leaves little room for a transaxle, though Volvo has done it; albeit wit complaints about not being able to keep a transmission strong enough to handle the torque. Bmw stayed with a straight 6 until just recently, and they require longer hood lines and i could see the long engine adding crash safety complexity, along with requiring a RWD layout, which has a mpg disadvantage due to the 90 degree gearing for the rear diff. The majority of all this is conjecture on my part.
 
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