Proposal for Regulations on Brake Rotors

[LS2JSTS]

Hey, they get the latest movies before we see them. Why shouldn't they have the DOT symbol design before it's out there....lol

Maybe DOT uses the counterfitters as outsourced graphic designers....lol

 

[Gary Allan]

There surely will be some taking advantage of this evolution. The industry itself should be able to self police. You put "meets or exceeds OEM specifications" ..I'm sure your competition is going to cry foul if you don't.

That is, the law just needs to say that autoparts must meet or exceed OEM spec's for stuff like brakes and steering components.

Rotor casting isn't rocket science. Assuming that there's any notion of quality control, I can't see it being a cost saving practice except where pennies count. Anyone who wholesales and/or retails them surely TRUMPS the manufacturing savings by huge margins. The mechanic marks up the rotor at a rate of several times its manufacturing cost ..as does the retailer/trade supplier ..as does the jobber and warehouse distributor ..and the importer/broker.

 

[tom slick]

I'm sure Affinia is doing this purely out of their concern for DIY consumers. Every company loves to create more Gov't regulations on themselves.

 

[raffy]

I'm not in favor of yet another federal law regulating products we use and should be responsible for ourselves. Besides, such federal laws (and I'm talking about the US federal government here, not state and local gov'ts) are unconstitutional because the US Constitution only grants those powers that are specifically stated in it. Anything not specifically stated in the US Constitution is reserved to the states and the people (see the 10th Amendment). Yes, I know that our fedgov routinely tramples and violates the Constitution, but that's another topic!

Back to brake rotors: most of these cheap aftermarket brake rotors are aimed at people who install them themselves (i.e., do-it-yourselfers). Most auto repair shops, well, the reputable ones at least, will either refuse to install these cheap rotors outright or will make you sign a waiver denying warranty coverage after installation. They don't want people coming back to get a defective or inferior quality rotor replaced; they lose money that way!

As DIY'ers (which a lot of us on a site like BITOG are), we have already decided to take responsibility for care of our own vehicles. We need to extend that responsibility and care to the parts we choose for our DIY jobs, especially a critical component system such as brakes. Yes, good brake parts (such as Wagner) probably cost twice as much, or more, than the cheap Chinese knockoffs that are flooding our market, but they last a lot longer and meet or exceed OEM specs as well as perform better.

Those companies that falsely advertise their products as meeting or exceeding OEM specs should be reported to and prosecuted by state attorney generals and local officials; there already are laws against fraud! Let's vote with our purchasing power and force the chintzy Chinese [censored] off our market by choosing good quality brake products! It will be safer and more economical (better value for the money) anyway.

Popular Mechanics magazine did a report on cheap brake rotors in the Dec. 2009 issue:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4338268.html

 

[CivicFan]

Originally Posted By: tom slick
I'm sure Affinia is doing this purely out of their concern for DIY consumers. Every company loves to create more Gov't regulations on themselves.


If they meet or exceed the proposed standards then it's a barrier for the low cost competitors. I don't know if there is data about the social costs associated with the cheap rotors but I haven't seen anything to suggest that low cost rotors are a safety hazard. I think this is one more ploy by a corporation to chase competitors out.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: Pablo
I like Japan (and China) style regulations that eliminate imports. This could be tailored to keep the riff-raff out.

It also means that the domestic manufacturers can be cheaper about what they build.

Often on Jeep Grand Cherokees, the OE Chrysler rotors warp much too easily, and premium grade Chinese rotors do the job.

Why not have some importers carry insurance against their part failures causing huge problems?

EDIT: and it also makes the American companies raise their price to insane numbers due to elimation of competition.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: raffy
I'm not in favor of yet another federal law regulating products we use and should be responsible for ourselves.

How in the heck can we be "responsible" for our brake rotors if we are not casting them ourselves?

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Those companies that falsely advertise their products as meeting or exceeding OEM specs should be reported to and prosecuted by state attorney generals and local officials; there already are laws against fraud! Let's vote with our purchasing power and force the chintzy Chinese [censored] off our market by choosing good quality brake products! It will be safer and more economical (better value for the money) anyway.


I call this the PT Barnum support position. Let the market ..ignorant, uninformed, unaware, take care of the problem ..and leave the carnage in the wake of such deceptive practices to those swindled and harmed.

The odds of the Lilliputians seeking and achieving recourse to make them whole are slim.

This would be a boost to PT Barnum's both foreign and domestic.

Quote:
Those companies that falsely advertise their products as meeting or exceeding OEM specs should be reported to and prosecuted by state attorney generals and local officials; there already are laws against fraud! Let's vote with our purchasing power and force the chintzy Chinese [censored] off our market by choosing good quality brake products! It will be safer and more economical (better value for the money) anyway.


Which can be simply circumvented by having your offices under different corporate shells in other states where YOUR state attorney general can't touch them (if he hasn't already be bought - easier to do on the state or local level) without going to Federal Court. All you need do then is underfund the state attorney's office of consumer fraud ..have the case loads back up ...giving enough time for the shell corporations to be dissolved and reformed under new shells.

Given all the PT's that would be empowered by such evolutions ..it would be dark comedy and a mockery of a just society.

 

[raffy]

Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Originally Posted By: raffy
I'm not in favor of yet another federal law regulating products we use and should be responsible for ourselves.

How in the heck can we be "responsible" for our brake rotors if we are not casting them ourselves?


I mean be responsible in the sense of choosing a quality brake rotor. That means doing a little bit of research to find those that perform the best, meet or exceed OEM specs, and are the best bargain for the money spent.

 

[Gary Allan]

I'm sorry, but enabling what amounts to used car salesmen (no offense to a used car salesperson if you're indeed an honest one) to have free reign to do whatever they can get away with ..without the penalty of a cruel and painful death in the balance, just won't cut it. It encourages dishonesty and unethical behavior.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: raffy
I mean be responsible in the sense of choosing a quality brake rotor. That means doing a little bit of research to find those that perform the best, meet or exceed OEM specs, and are the best bargain for the money spent.

Of course. The problem is, how are we to know what rotors "meet or exceed" OEM specs?

Are we going to have to shop only from companies that have a letter from the OEMs saying "this product meets or exceeds our specs? That's an easy way to let the OEMs decide the price at will.

Or, are we going to go by what the manufacturers themselves say? In that case, I refer you to Gary Allan's comments.

"Research?" Like reading on the Internet or talking to mechanics who "swear by" Brand X and have "never had a problem"? Given what I've seen of peoples' skills of critical thinking and intellectual integrity, I wouldn't count on this being a good method.

The regulation being proposed is essentially a minimum quality level. All it will do is ensure that any brake rotor sold in the US for on-road use must be good enough that it won't warp, crack, or overheat instantly, or wear out prematurely. Some rotors will still be better than others, but at least none of them will be unsafe.

 

[Gary Allan]

Quote:
Given what I've seen of peoples' skills of critical thinking and intellectual integrity, I wouldn't count on this being a good method.


This assumes that one truly desires a "good" outcome and defines "good" as synonymous with "beneficial to all" . Some would view it as a "just" outcome for lack of the aforementioned skills. Effectively a boobtrapped market driven idiot tariff for not being smarter than the guy trying to empty your wallet.

I find that this is usually supported and promoted by those who indeed want others wallets emptied.

 

[benjamming]

I have to go back to what Critic said in his 2nd post I believe it was. Where is the problem?

 

[PT1]

I say...buyer beware. If you are buying cheap made in china aftermarket rotors...then they won't perform as well as the high quality ones. If your shop puts them on...they chance losing your business. My indy mechanic always gives me both prices...cheap chinese aftermarket or OEM. The dealers always use OEM. But I have used cheap rotors on a car I wasn't going to keep a long time.

I have never seen an aftermarket rotor fail on a car that was not well maintained. Plus they didn't suffer catastrophic failure...just warped and needed replacement sooner.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: PT1
If you are buying cheap made in china aftermarket rotors...then they won't perform as well as the high quality ones.

Maybe.

The point is not that they WILL work badly, the point is that it's a gamble.

 

[Gary Allan]

That's not the full scope of the "free market" deal. Given enough of a price advantage cheaper stuff just runs the "standard" (good) out of business. Then the standard becomes substandard. I've watched it with belts. 75% the life for 50% the cost. Downgrade from there until you've found a manufacturer that can't make it any cheaper in any way. You never return to the highest quality level, at least on a mass availability scale.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: benjamming
I have to go back to what Critic said in his 2nd post I believe it was. Where is the problem?

Exactly.

The guys over on Saturnfans.com have been using the infamous "wearever" rotors and wearever silver/gold pads from Advanced Auto for years and they've actually had BETTER results than the Genuine GM stuff.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
That's not the full scope of the "free market" deal. Given enough of a price advantage cheaper stuff just runs the "standard" (good) out of business. Then the standard becomes substandard. I've watched it with belts. 75% the life for 50% the cost. Downgrade from there until you've found a manufacturer that can't make it any cheaper in any way. You never return to the highest quality level, at least on a mass availability scale.

I'm not sure we're arguing on the same point.

All I'm saying is, it'd be good to have a minimum standard to prevent rotors from being sold that will warp or crack instantly.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Gary Allan
That's not the full scope of the "free market" deal. Given enough of a price advantage cheaper stuff just runs the "standard" (good) out of business. Then the standard becomes substandard. I've watched it with belts. 75% the life for 50% the cost. Downgrade from there until you've found a manufacturer that can't make it any cheaper in any way. You never return to the highest quality level, at least on a mass availability scale.


I agree with you. The "market" has already shown us that it will push quality rotors out for cheap China made ones that many of which couldn't meet minimum standards. Just try to get a quality non-China rotor at most autoparts stores.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Originally Posted By: benjamming
I have to go back to what Critic said in his 2nd post I believe it was. Where is the problem?

Exactly.

The guys over on Saturnfans.com have been using the infamous "wearever" rotors and wearever silver/gold pads from Advanced Auto for years and they've actually had BETTER results than the Genuine GM stuff.


Then they obviously meet or exceed OEM specifications.