Privatization of Higways and Roads

[peterr]

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We've got one like that here in Ontario. Hwy 407.

How does $12.50 for a 60 mile ride grab you.

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The 407 is a good example of how to do this wrong. In Ontario toll roads are rare. I can't recall ever being on one other than the 407.

It was built with public money, to address a shortfall of road capacity that was driven by suburban expansion and the fiscal and environmental unwillingness to build any new roads for about 30 years. But to address a current year budget deficit the Provincial government sold off the toll highway to the same group , Cintra/Macquarie who are referenced in the Indiana article. Sort of an equation of:

Budget shortfall + Balanced budget promise + "read my lips, no new taxes" = Bad Public Policy decisions

It was a total sweetheart deal. And it was done for narrow short term reasons. The public invests all the capital and then a private company gets a 99 year lease on the concession at below market rates, then immediately reneges on their promise to keep toll fees down.

I do not have a problem with privatization. There are just right ways to do it and wrong ways. There are lots of things that private firms do better. When getting a driver's license renewed was all government here a wait of 1 or 2 hours was common. Since it was privatized it takes 3 minutes. Of course the number of fraudulent drivers licenses issued and vehicles plated has gone from practically none to tens of thousands, because profit and efficiency are the only drivers.

Which indicates there are things that do not belong in private hands. A trade off to get 3 minute waits instead of 2 hour waits may be reasonable, but what you could end up with is many more illegals with valid drivers' licenses. Or maybe you think the security issue is a bigger deal. Reasonable people can debate this. It is not a clear cut case of which is better: private vs. public ?

I wince whenever I hear of privatized prisons. If a state is going to take away someone's liberty it dang well owns the moral responsibility to own the process and not subcontract it out.

On a banal level of logic or fairness the privatization that does not work is exemplified by Russia. From communist oppression to selling the entire nation at 5 kopecks on the ruble to cronies and criminals in about 2 years.

 

[LouDawg]

We have had a number of toll roads that have closed around here in the last few years, one just last month. And every one of them were open years, even decades, longer than the original "plan". And who ran those? Yep...the state. And how long have the poor folks up East suffered with the dreadfully wasteful toll road (cash cow) systems up there? How far past their original bond dates and revenue targets did they and do they continue to operate? The problem is once the government starts collecting revenue, they don't want to stop. To me, this is the biggest concern I have with the privatization. Not that it will be less efficient and a security risk, but that the government will keep our theoretical tax savings to pay for more government programs, further prop up a broken social security system, and otherwise p-i-s-s it away. Why? Because they have it, and they won't want to give it back.

I respect everyone's opinion on here, but I'm just simply not ready to push the panic button here. I support experimenting on an initially smaller scale with privatization where it makes sense. However, I am not yet ready for the wholesale outsourcing of our entire transportation infrastructure.

I say let's see if it can be done better, less expensively, securely, and more efficiently by the private sector, on a small scale, then go from there.

 

[jmac]

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Nothing to see here people, move along.

Foreign owned toll roads and a four football field wide foreign owned road going through the heart of our country, bypassing customs, unions, and US workers. No debate in Congress and hardly any US citizens no the planning and construction is already underway. Move along people.

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Bypassing customs? Hogwash.

Bypassing Unions? Good!!

Bypassing U.S. workers? Who do you think will be building and maintaining them?

U.S. citizens unaware? #@$%!, they've been blissfully unaware of most everything for the last three decades. It was QUITE public in Indiana, and there are as many people for it as against it.

How about the tremendous tax savings to the U.S. taxpayers?

Keep charging...Don Quixote would be proud.

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Maybe you need to actually look at those links that I posted. Drew seems to be the only one that can actually bother to read and understand. Here is one more that might wake you sleeping sheep up.
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_4088.shtml

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The planned NAFTA Super Highway would radically reconfigure not only the physical landscape of these United States, but our political and economic landscapes as well....

How would all of this affect you, your family, and your community? Let us count the ways. One of the most striking features of the proposed Super Highway is the plan to do away with our borders, as evidenced by the joint U.S.-Mexico Customs facility already under construction in Kansas City, Missouri. A U.S. Customs checkpoint in Kansas City? But that's a thousand miles inside America's heartland; isn't the purpose of U.S. Customs to check people and cargo at our borders?

Ah, but the mere asking of that question shows that you're still operating under the old paradigm that sees the United States as an independent, sovereign nation.

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[LouDawg]

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Maybe you need to actually look at those links that I posted. Drew seems to be the only one that can actually bother to read and understand. Here is one more that might wake you sleeping sheep up.

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jmac, I read plenty...and I've read lots both for and against this issue. I don't need to read every link posted on a web forum to help me form an educated opinion. Heck, I could post lots of links that give very compelling arguments in favor of privatization, but would you read them? I doubt it...I'm sure your mind is made up. We're doomed, and if we think otherwise, we are...what was it...sheep?

Does that make me right? No. Do your links make you right? No.

Enjoy your Kool-Aid.

 

[Duffman77]

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We've got one like that here in Ontario. Hwy 407.

How does $12.50 for a 60 mile ride grab you.

---

The 407 is a good example of how to do this wrong. In Ontario toll roads are rare. I can't recall ever being on one other than the 407.

It was built with public money, to address a shortfall of road capacity that was driven by suburban expansion and the fiscal and environmental unwillingness to build any new roads for about 30 years. But to address a current year budget deficit the Provincial government sold off the toll highway to the same group , Cintra/Macquarie who are referenced in the Indiana article. Sort of an equation of:

Budget shortfall + Balanced budget promise + "read my lips, no new taxes" = Bad Public Policy decisions

It was a total sweetheart deal. And it was done for narrow short term reasons. The public invests all the capital and then a private company gets a 99 year lease on the concession at below market rates, then immediately reneges on their promise to keep toll fees down.

I do not have a problem with privatization. There are just right ways to do it and wrong ways. There are lots of things that private firms do better. When getting a driver's license renewed was all government here a wait of 1 or 2 hours was common. Since it was privatized it takes 3 minutes. Of course the number of fraudulent drivers licenses issued and vehicles plated has gone from practically none to tens of thousands, because profit and efficiency are the only drivers.

Which indicates there are things that do not belong in private hands. A trade off to get 3 minute waits instead of 2 hour waits may be reasonable, but what you could end up with is many more illegals with valid drivers' licenses. Or maybe you think the security issue is a bigger deal. Reasonable people can debate this. It is not a clear cut case of which is better: private vs. public ?

I wince whenever I hear of privatized prisons. If a state is going to take away someone's liberty it dang well owns the moral responsibility to own the process and not subcontract it out.

On a banal level of logic or fairness the privatization that does not work is exemplified by Russia. From communist oppression to selling the entire nation at 5 kopecks on the ruble to cronies and criminals in about 2 years.

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My dad moved from Saskatchewan to just outside Sault Ste. marie and he complains about getting licence plates there. One place in town, open Govt hours and slow. Yet in Sask we have Sask Govt Ins (SGI) as the sole source of vehicle insurance. Yet in Saskatoon there must be 20 places I can get insurance+plates, and the ones in the malls are open mall hours, meaning Sunday and late on some nights. I think this is a perfect example of where something that is not suppose to work because of its Govt ties actually works better. On an aside I wish i could legally get SGI outside of Sask.

 

[Drew99GT]

There is and has been no argument/debate about the NAFTA highway. That's the problem. It's basically a done deal. This has not one iota to do with some theoretical debate about public vs. private. Maybe more to do with foreign vs. domestic................the US a sovereign entity or part of a North American Union...............decisions about our country made by elected representatives or sovereign governments that actually make decisions in their interest.

 

[LouDawg]

Drew, I totally agree. This whole thread has evolved (or devolved?) from a public vs. private debate into an entire discussion of economic policy and national sovereignty. It is way beyond the scope of this forum, at least imho.

FWIW, I did read the articles from the New American. I understand their concerns, but I had a number of problems with the lines between fact and opinion becoming somewhat blurred. However, I am way too tired to consider it any further this evening.

Good night, all!

 

[Drew99GT]

Well, we probably went beyond the bounds of the rules of this forum so maybe we better just let it get locked up.

Then, I'll see you by the flagpole!!! Just kiddin my friend.

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

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You really are thick.
If you weren't so fixated on my post count or join-date, maybe you could comprehend the things I'm saying.

So now I'm a card-carrying liberal because I'm a realist and realize that the majority of drivers in the United States are terrible?

I work at a district office of a NJ state senator (who is a republican, mind you)

Quit trying to e-thug me, you look less intelligent with each post of yours.

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Sure Newb. You got called is all.

..Tell it to Al and Nancy..

 

[Lex94]

Low speed limits cause terrible drivers.
High speed limits cause good drivers.

Privatized roads will result in better maintenance and therefore higher speed limits and therefore better divers.

If one cant handle driving and talking on a cell phone then maybe they shouldnt be driving at all. Just a thought....

 

[q2bruiser]

Here is an interesting question ...

If a road is private ... meaning American or foreign corporate ownership, are American taxpayers required to fund law enforcement on those highways? Must we pay both toll and taxes? I know we will, but I have no desire to fund HW Patrolmen on a private road with my tax dollars ... especially if I just paid a toll to drive on it.

JKH

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Excuse me, but weren't those already toll roads? Aren't toll roads paid off by the tolls and generally only get SOME, not ALL of their building costs from govt?

They aren't doing anything that hasn't already been done, it's just being done with non-US buisiness.

BTW, there are ports that already are being managed by non-US companies. This is because there aren't any US companies that can do it or that those that do can't take the business.

I'm all for keeping things in-country, but it's a global economy now and you can't roll back the clock. To attempt that would get us kicked out of a lot of countries where WE are doing the same.

$.02

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

We have a toll road owned by the State of Virginia (commonwealth, actually) that's been supported by the locals with tolls for twenty years or more. Dulles Toll Road. Va has been offered some number of billions (40, 50? can't remember the actual numbers) by a private concern to collect the tolls, maintain the road, and of course, reap the profits. The locals are up in arms against Richmond over this, because the money goes to RICHMOND, with little or no transportaion benefit to Northern Va. Meanwhile, OUR local police will still be tasked with speed enforcement, accident investigation and survey. It looks like a bad deal to all except the future owners who will set up high-dollar express lanes you can travel by paying many dollars extra per trip and will have great leeway to increase the tolls as they see fit.

Commonwealth? Hardly.

 

[Pablo]

Sad that no one actually posted a credible news article or congressional record about this. Is our press THAT lazy?

 

[brianl703]

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Low speed limits cause terrible drivers.
High speed limits cause good drivers.

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The emphasis, starting at least with good old Joan "airbags" Claybrook and probably before, in this country has been on speed and speed enforcement to the detriment of most other factors of safety. Believe me, someone can be as unsafe driving the speed limit as they can 20MPH over.

While I'm on the subject, what is it with the number of vehicles with blown headlights I've seen on the road in the last 6 months? Did the Fairfax County Police forget how to write a ticket for that?

 

[Gary Allan]

Hey, anything that brings money back into the nation is a good thing. Ownership is one thing that allows others with stacks of slips of green paper (one of our chief exports) get to return them to us ..giving those slips of green paper some worth. We've done it for decades in other places.

...but..again..the future holds nothing in terms of "better" for the average person in the USA.

 

[brianl703]

Noticed how the dollar is falling in value?

 

[427Z06]

History of the Gasoline Tax

http://www.artba.org/economics_research/reports/gas_tax_history.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tax

U.S. Federal gasoline tax as of 2005 was 18.4¢/gal
States gasoline tax range from 10¢-33¢/gal

And our governments can't afford to build and maintain our roads?

 

[427Z06]

U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumption 9,159,000 barrels/day (384.7 million gallons/day)

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

$384,700,000 x $0.40 = $153,880,000/day

365 x $153,880,000/day = $56,166,200,000/yr

That $56 Billion a year collected just from gasoline taxes.

 

[Gary Allan]

Kinda makes you think when gas was around a buck a gallon ..almost half of the price was road tax.