PQIA tests ten 5W-20s - one gets an Advisory

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I somewhat disagree but I see your point. They tested a randomly bought sample of NextGen twice meaning there is more than a good possibility there is at least whole batch that is sub standard.

Where is the QC at Ashland? This apparent lack of QC alone makes me a little apprehensive of their products and their re refining process.
Something like this may scare away buyers that were on the fence IMO.


If the noack is correct , and consistent I would worry less. If you found the noack varied from batch to batch then their quality control is lacking and I would be worried about oil from the brand.

 

[MobilinHyundia]

My questions now is, can I go out and buy QSGB or PYB in any store here in Canada and hope it will be the " good stuff".
May the good stuff is only produced after a specific date?

 

[k24a4]

The Autozone and Advance oils are the same. I guess that is not really surprising.

 

[dustyroads]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I suppose I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I will make an observation. To me, assuming that the NOACK % on the PYB and QSGB is accurate, this indicates one of two things:

1) SOPUS has made a conscious change in strategy for these two conventional oils. I know SOPUS isn't known for keeping up-to-date TDSs online, but both TDS numbers and PQIA testing in the past has demonstrated that their conventional oils used to be very much in-line with others terms of NOACK %. If this is a permanent change in formulation, then I would hope to see some marketing of that by SOPUS, or at least an update of the TDS.

2) SOPUS indeed has excess GTL or GTL-like stock and is using it where they can. I'm not sure of the economics of this...would it be cheaper for them to somehow store it and use it in the future or is it indeed cheaper for them to simply dump it into $15/jug motor oil? Maybe the latter really is true. Either way, if they don't play this angle up in marketing or if they don't revise their TDS, a lot of me would tend to side with the theory that this is a short-term change to their formulation, and/or the inventory nation-wide may not be consistent. That is, the particular lot that produced PQIA's oil might be a very different lot that produced the quarts of 5W-20 SN that sit in my garage right now. It'd be hard to know if EVERY quart out there has this super-low NOACK % without additional verification.

I'd certainly prefer that #1 above be true.


Yeah, what he said...

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
I suppose I don't have much to say that hasn't already been said, but I will make an observation. To me, assuming that the NOACK % on the PYB and QSGB is accurate, this indicates one of two things:

1) SOPUS has made a conscious change in strategy for these two conventional oils. I know SOPUS isn't known for keeping up-to-date TDSs online, but both TDS numbers and PQIA testing in the past has demonstrated that their conventional oils used to be very much in-line with others terms of NOACK %. If this is a permanent change in formulation, then I would hope to see some marketing of that by SOPUS, or at least an update of the TDS.

2) SOPUS indeed has excess GTL or GTL-like stock and is using it where they can. I'm not sure of the economics of this...would it be cheaper for them to somehow store it and use it in the future or is it indeed cheaper for them to simply dump it into $15/jug motor oil? Maybe the latter really is true. Either way, if they don't play this angle up in marketing or if they don't revise their TDS, a lot of me would tend to side with the theory that this is a short-term change to their formulation, and/or the inventory nation-wide may not be consistent. That is, the particular lot that produced PQIA's oil might be a very different lot that produced the quarts of 5W-20 SN that sit in my garage right now. It'd be hard to know if EVERY quart out there has this super-low NOACK % without additional verification.

I'd certainly prefer that #1 above be true.


GTL-rich Ultra in 5w/20 has 5% Noack compared to PYB's 6.5%, so this sample of PYB seems to have almost as much GTL as Pennzoil's top-tier product. Given the cost of GTL (keeping in mind the facility that makes it Qatar was a $20 bn project), it wouldn't seem to make any financial or marketing sense to make an entry-level product that's that close to Ultra. Seriously, if this is the ongoing formulation why bother with Ultra or Platinum?

So I'm thinking explanation number 2 is more likely. And if that's the case, there's no way of knowing exactly what is in the PYB bottle at WalMart.

 

[z917990]

I guess that I will ask an obvious and probably stupid question. Will using Valvoline Nextgen harm my engine, assuming an OCI 5 months/5000 miles (probably less) that Honda recommends? I bought a load of this stuff for $1.00 a quart at AZ. Now I'm kicking myself in the butt.

 

[Solarent]

Originally Posted By: Danh
GTL-rich Ultra in 5w/20 has 5% Noack compared to PYB's 6.5%, so this sample of PYB seems to have almost as much GTL as Pennzoil's top-tier product. Given the cost of GTL (keeping in mind the facility that makes it Qatar was a $20 bn project), it wouldn't seem to make any financial or marketing sense to make an entry-level product that's that close to Ultra. Seriously, if this is the ongoing formulation why bother with Ultra or Platinum?

So I'm thinking explanation number 2 is more likely. And if that's the case, there's no way of knowing exactly what is in the PYB bottle at WalMart.


Not to speak on behalf of Shell, but I think it's funny how a single isolated test (even done by the good folks at PQIA) and people are declaring that GTL must be being added to PYB... yeah right - I don't believe that for one second.

There could be multiple reasons for these samples to have lower NOACK's that have nothing to do with GTL stocks. If anyone thinks for a second that they would have a high concentration of an expensive synthetic base and then sell it as a conventional - whether or not Shell has a surplus of GTL - they are crazy. There is an entire market for high quality Group III base stocks sold to blenders - if they had extra they would sell it to those of us who wanted to use it to make synthetic products and make top dollar.

And those bemoaning the Nextgen result and blaming it on using rerefined stocks shows a painful lack of understanding of the process. Most re-refined stocks go through the exact same kind of processing that heavy crudes (such bitumous crude) does and they produce base stocks of the same or better quality. If I were to provide you with two samples of base oil made from virgin and rerefined feedstocks I bet there isn't anyone on this board who could tell the difference.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: Tom NJ
PQIA continues its series on 5W-20 motor oils. Valvoline NextGen gets an Advisory for a high Noack.

Petroleum Quality Institute of America

Tom NJ


Tom, just a note that about half of the bottles pictured on the main website link to a pqiamerica.com file and the other half, including the link to the consolidated results, link to an rs6.net server that doesn't seem to be responding, at least on my connection.

 

[KCJeep]

Interesting for sure.

When the Noack on Ultra was first published, everybody thought SOPUS was on crack. But now we know it to be accurate.

Just sayin....

Puzzling though... sticking with PYB's killer add pack and adding a load of GTL base stock (if that's the case) makes PYB more appealing than Ultra. AT 10+ fewer bucks a jug too.

 

[ChrisD46]

Big difference between a NOAK of 13% and 6% or 7% ... The truth could disrupt synthetic sales as if the NOAK data is true across all QSAD and PYB then my "new" OCI instantly just became 6 months / 6,000 miles on dino !

 

[Danh]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Danh
GTL-rich Ultra in 5w/20 has 5% Noack compared to PYB's 6.5%, so this sample of PYB seems to have almost as much GTL as Pennzoil's top-tier product. Given the cost of GTL (keeping in mind the facility that makes it Qatar was a $20 bn project), it wouldn't seem to make any financial or marketing sense to make an entry-level product that's that close to Ultra. Seriously, if this is the ongoing formulation why bother with Ultra or Platinum?

So I'm thinking explanation number 2 is more likely. And if that's the case, there's no way of knowing exactly what is in the PYB bottle at WalMart.


Not to speak on behalf of Shell, but I think it's funny how a single isolated test (even done by the good folks at PQIA) and people are declaring that GTL must be being added to PYB... yeah right - I don't believe that for one second.

There could be multiple reasons for these samples to have lower NOACK's that have nothing to do with GTL stocks. If anyone thinks for a second that they would have a high concentration of an expensive synthetic base and then sell it as a conventional - whether or not Shell has a surplus of GTL - they are crazy. There is an entire market for high quality Group III base stocks sold to blenders - if they had extra they would sell it to those of us who wanted to use it to make synthetic products and make top dollar.

And those bemoaning the Nextgen result and blaming it on using rerefined stocks shows a painful lack of understanding of the process. Most re-refined stocks go through the exact same kind of processing that heavy crudes (such bitumous crude) does and they produce base stocks of the same or better quality. If I were to provide you with two samples of base oil made from virgin and rerefined feedstocks I bet there isn't anyone on this board who could tell the difference.


Gee, I hate to be called crazy, but if the PQIA lab result is correct, there is no other way to get volatility that low without Group III+ (GTL) or better synthetic. See if you can find any other "conventional" oil that has done it or come even remotely close. Heck, other than boutique oils and Ultra, no North American full synthetic comes close. The GTL speculation is only because that seems to be base in Shell's Ultra line and they produce a bunch of it in Qatar.

I agree there's no way SOPUS would do this on an ongoing basis, but if there was a surplus, as a temporary expedient, who knows? Keep in mind that Ultra seems to be a primary use of this base stock in the U.S. and with Ultra sales seemingly collapsing, the idea that a surplus could exist isn't too far out.

 

[KCJeep]

Just looked at it again... the PYB and QSGB are both much lower than the rest at -30 (cP) as well.

Not thinking lab error on the Noack.

How long can this last?

 

[Quattro Pete]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
There could be multiple reasons for these samples to have lower NOACK's that have nothing to do with GTL stocks.

Care to offer any alternative reasons?

 

[CATERHAM]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
Originally Posted By: Danh
GTL-rich Ultra in 5w/20 has 5% Noack compared to PYB's 6.5%, so this sample of PYB seems to have almost as much GTL as Pennzoil's top-tier product. Given the cost of GTL (keeping in mind the facility that makes it Qatar was a $20 bn project), it wouldn't seem to make any financial or marketing sense to make an entry-level product that's that close to Ultra. Seriously, if this is the ongoing formulation why bother with Ultra or Platinum?

So I'm thinking explanation number 2 is more likely. And if that's the case, there's no way of knowing exactly what is in the PYB bottle at WalMart.


Not to speak on behalf of Shell, but I think it's funny how a single isolated test (even done by the good folks at PQIA) and people are declaring that GTL must be being added to PYB... yeah right - I don't believe that for one second.

There could be multiple reasons for these samples to have lower NOACK's that have nothing to do with GTL stocks. If anyone thinks for a second that they would have a high concentration of an expensive synthetic base and then sell it as a conventional - whether or not Shell has a surplus of GTL - they are crazy. There is an entire market for high quality Group III base stocks sold to blenders - if they had extra they would sell it to those of us who wanted to use it to make synthetic products and make top dollar.

It's not just the low NOACK figures but also the very low CCS spec's. The only way these numbers can be achieved is with synthetic oil and since these figures are so close to PU, particularly the CCS spec's the only logical explanation is the use of GTL base oils.

I agree with Hokiefyd, this is a temporary situation to clear an over supply of GTL. It's not permanent because if word gets out that their conventional oil is much the same as PU it will be a marketing disaster.
It would be useful to get the batch #s of these sample PYB and QSAD tested oils. So take advantage of it while it lasts.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: wemay
What the heck am I gonna do with these AZ clearance Nextgen qts now ?!


Sell them on Craigslist for 2 bucks a quart and double your money? Seriously, let's not go nuts over the Valvoline numbers. I might email them and see what they have to say; their customer service department is really good (unless you blow a tranny using Maxlife ATF...)

The PQIA test for other grades of Nextgen look fine.

 

[RF Overlord]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
their customer service department is really good (unless you blow a tranny using Maxlife ATF...)
D'OH! I remember that thread...

 

[Drew99GT]

I emailed Valvoline; hopefully they respond.

"Hi, I just wanted to bring to your attention an independent test of 5w-20 motor oils done by The Petroleum Quality Institute of America; they just released test results that show Valvoline Maxlife Nextgen motor oil failed the API 5w-xx NOACK volatility test.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/Nov2013/Valvolinenextgen.htm

Was wondering if I could get some feedback as I'm a member of the Bob Is The Oil Guy web forum and there is a lively discussion regarding the subject.

Thanks for any information and updates"

I hope they actually figure out what the issue is and contact PQIA directly with new product to test, batch numbers/dates of offending product etc.

 

[KCJeep]

Good move.

Everytime I've emailed Valvoline I've gotten courteous, informed responses in a matter of hours.

Never dealt with them about a blown tranny though!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: wemay
What the heck am I gonna do with these AZ clearance Nextgen qts now ?!


Sell them on Craigslist for 2 bucks a quart and double your money?


Not sure about that. Now, that news is out, the value could have plunged to 69 cents!

 

[friendly_jacek]

Originally Posted By: CATERHAM

I agree with Hokiefyd, this is a temporary situation to clear an over supply of GTL. It's not permanent because if word gets out that their conventional oil is much the same as PU it will be a marketing disaster.
It would be useful to get the batch #s of these sample PYB and QSAD tested oils. So take advantage of it while it lasts.


It maybe more permanent than we think. There is a glut in natural gas and GTL is cheaper than crude refining.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10...2-diesel-energy