^ Okay, but ... you wouldn't be replacing the BJs if the original sealed ones lasted the life of the vehicle, unless of course, you noticed boot damage early on yet couldn't find a replacement boot.
Popped Moog Ball joint boot
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100% disagree, I see Subaru, BMW, MB, VW/Audi, Toyota and others going going over 200K and 20-25 years on the original LFL joints and I have been doing this professionally for over 50 years and live in an area with some of the worst pot holes in the country.
Right now I have 2 Saab cars that are over 20 years old, I had a 24 year old VW and a 26 year old Subaru and a 30 year old MB all with the original LFL joints in them, I think the warranty is long gone on all of them.
On heavier vehicles like trucks the greasable may be a bit tougher if they are greased often but even with pickups that see regular road use it is not uncommon to get 100K or more out of the LFL.
When I started in this business every oil change was listed on the RO as LOF, lube oil and filter, clean of the zerks before greasing and don't blow the boots up and do it every 3K. Even with that done religiously we did a lot of ball joints and tie rods and other parts, many times more than we do do them today.
775k on my original ball joints on my 2010 Prius. Only has lower ball joints (MacPherson struts). Of course they live a fairly sheltered life down there as opposed to upper ball joints on some applications but I can report that they are still tight. Original control arm bushings, original CV axles, original rack and tie rod ends... I did however need to replace the sway bar end links a few years back. I put the Moog greaseable ones on there but when those get loose I'll be in the market for some sealed units. Nothing against the Moog units but I just feel guilty if I have the wheels off and I don't drag out the grease gun with flex hose and contort myself around and pump a shot of grease in them.
Come to think of it, I have the Moog greaseables on the rear end links too. They are holding up well. TRD sway bar. Supplied endlinks were short lived.
But yeah, no reason to fear lubed-for-life ball joints. As long as the grease stays in and the dirt/water stays out they should have a super long lifespan. Assuming they are quality units to begin with.
Come to think of it, I have the Moog greaseables on the rear end links too. They are holding up well. TRD sway bar. Supplied endlinks were short lived.
But yeah, no reason to fear lubed-for-life ball joints. As long as the grease stays in and the dirt/water stays out they should have a super long lifespan. Assuming they are quality units to begin with.
Do you have a part number for those?
Except, if the originals held up so good, they wouldn't need replaced, so either the particular design, or the particular environment, is creating a need to evaluate what would hold up longer.
It's not a rare part to replace. Popular vehicles are supported by a half dozen or more brands.
Everything has a finite life. IME, with sealed ball joints and tire rod ends, the boots rot out before the joints develop play. Out here they easily last 10 yrs/200K.
Can’t say the same for the dated greasable designs.
I don't understand where you are coming from with this, many cars go to the junk yard fore the age of 20 with the original LFL joints still in them. I recently did some lower joints on a 2004 Subaru, there was no play in them but the owner thought the boots looked flat so he stuck a lube needle in them to fill them up, they didn't last long after that.
I would guess that damaged boots letting in debris/water is the cause of most joint failures, which is not under your control anyways. If the boot is intact and the vehicle isn't abused, it's entirely reasonable for the joint to last the life of a vehicle which most do.
Greasable joints make almost no sense for 99% of people because the risk of them not being maintained is far too high. The only situations where I see them of value is maybe in abusive situations carrying heavy loads or offroading.
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A lot of BITOG members are DIY's and would make sure they get greased though,
Yes, and we can ignore those because the replacements would be for vehicles that needed them. Look up BJs on a popular site, say Amazon, and they have thousands of sales per page of hits. That's only counting the DIYers who buy auto parts from amazon. It seems fairly clear that many cars do not go to the junk yard with the original BJs, if only they avoid other causes of premature demise like a collision that totals them.
This is where I suspect the low percentage is, people who use a lube needle. You previously stated it is not uncommon to get 100K mi out of heavier vehicles like trucks, but then what? Then you (may) need BJs, and hope to get another 200K mi out of the vehicle. Besides the line is blurring on "heavier vehicles" now that so many people are driving unibody SUVs which are engineered more like cars including weak suspension components.
I agree that a car is less likely to need BJs replaced, but I also wonder, how can you be certain these vehicles have their original ball joints? Doing surveys on them all? I never report to the official BJ census bureau when I replace them.
After a million plus miles on various Asian cars I’ll take a Sankei 555 sealed joint any day over a greaseable one. Same for my old BMW where the Lemforder and TRW ones were also sealed.
Same is true of u-joints.
The only BJ's that impressed me were Beck Arnleys with a literal nipple for the old grease to escape. This was for a '93 4Runner of all things.....
What exactly is your problem? 100K and more out of ball joints on some pickups is pretty darn good, aftermarket greasable joints sometimes do not make it half that and rarely match what the OE does. It is a joint when it is worn out you change it, that simple.Yes, and we can ignore those because the replacements would be for vehicles that needed them. Look up BJs on a popular site, say Amazon, and they have thousands of sales per page of hits. That's only counting the DIYers who buy auto parts from amazon. It seems fairly clear that many cars do not go to the junk yard with the original BJs, if only they avoid other causes of premature demise like a collision that totals them.
This is where I suspect the low percentage is, people who use a lube needle. You previously stated it is not uncommon to get 100K mi out of heavier vehicles like trucks, but then what? Then you (may) need BJs, and hope to get another 200K mi out of the vehicle. Besides the line is blurring on "heavier vehicles" now that so many people are driving unibody SUVs which are engineered more like cars including weak suspension components.
I agree that a car is less likely to need BJs replaced, but I also wonder, how can you be certain these vehicles have their original ball joints? Doing surveys on them all? I never report to the official BJ census bureau when I replace them.
People messing around with grease needles is more common than you think, it is a question that comes up here on the forum now and then over the years.
If you like greasing joints have at it, it makes no difference to me.
The Critic - the rear end links on a 2010-15 Prius TRD sway bar cross over to some Honda FRONT sway bar end links. 2000 Honda Accord, 2002 Acura CL. Of course other years of those body styles but I'm not familiar enough with them to know the ranges. I just know those cars work when looking them up on Rockauto. Wide selection to choose from. Don't forget you want the front ones from the Honda, they're real short and stubby - and different part numbers for right and left. Hope this helps.
That I disagree with this idea that non-greaseable BJs are anything other than a bad idea for proactive DIYers who would grease them.
If you get 100K mi. or ever need to replace them, which quite a few vehicles do, the question is then what to replace them with. If your BJs last the life of the vehicle then it is a non-issue.
If you replace with the same thing, it would be irrational to assume they will last longer than another 100K mi on same vehicle and environment.
I don't know about you but if I am presented with an opportunity to replace something and there is a way to get longer life out of the replacement, that's a good thing.
The argument that "it lasts long enough" does not fly when the situation is that it did not last long enough.
I don't know why you can't accept this. On the other hand, I can accept that if the sealed BJ is cheaper, and there is no expectation that the vehicle will outlast the replacement BJ, that any extra money spent would be wasted.
What is BITOG anyway? It's where the point is driven home about lubricating things. Sealed BJs, are the opposite of that. Plastic bushings... when ever, in the history of mechanical things, was that better instead of just cheaper if only the maintenance was done which is kind of what this whole forum is about.
This does not mean that the quality of a greaseable BJ couldn't be lower than a sealed. Start out with junk and greasing it just means you have greasy junk.
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