Mercruiser 7.4 liter 454 with remote oil filter.
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Oversize filters and oil capacity ?
- Thread starter rubberchicken
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Originally Posted by rubberchicken
I wanted to follow up on this thread: I found that I had a used M1-302 in my oil drain from the spring, and cut it open and measured the volume of fluid it would hold, which was approx 1.2 quarts and aligns very closely with the 65 ci I found online. This is 20 oz more than the M1-111 filter.
Did you leave the guts of the filter in the can when you did the test?
I wanted to follow up on this thread: I found that I had a used M1-302 in my oil drain from the spring, and cut it open and measured the volume of fluid it would hold, which was approx 1.2 quarts and aligns very closely with the 65 ci I found online. This is 20 oz more than the M1-111 filter.
Did you leave the guts of the filter in the can when you did the test?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
I wanted to follow up on this thread: I found that I had a used M1-302 in my oil drain from the spring, and cut it open and measured the volume of fluid it would hold, which was approx 1.2 quarts and aligns very closely with the 65 ci I found online. This is 20 oz more than the M1-111 filter.
Did you leave the guts of the filter in the can when you did the test?
Of course not, but I deducted 10% volume to compensate for the material: I probably should only deduct 5%. Leaving the guts in would just create more of a mess, and a 10% margin of error is well within the tolerance I would accept for purposes of my question. I also used water to measure, not oil.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
I wanted to follow up on this thread: I found that I had a used M1-302 in my oil drain from the spring, and cut it open and measured the volume of fluid it would hold, which was approx 1.2 quarts and aligns very closely with the 65 ci I found online. This is 20 oz more than the M1-111 filter.
Did you leave the guts of the filter in the can when you did the test?
Of course not, but I deducted 10% volume to compensate for the material: I probably should only deduct 5%. Leaving the guts in would just create more of a mess, and a 10% margin of error is well within the tolerance I would accept for purposes of my question. I also used water to measure, not oil.
I would have just added maybe a half a quart more of oil and called it good. No need to be real precise about it.
It would have been easier to just calculate the volume of the can by measuring the diameter and length then cutting and filling up the empty can. Full mark on the dipstick 15 min after a hot shutdown is still what I'd be shooting for.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
It would have been easier to just calculate the volume of the can by measuring the diameter and length then cutting and filling up the empty can. Full mark on the dipstick 15 min after a hot shutdown is still what I'd be shooting for.
I am starting to get the impression that you do not read my posts. Cutting and filling the empty can is exactly what I did. I used water though, and deducted 10% volume to compensate for the guts.
Method 1) calculate capacity = reported volume in cubic inches , convert to liquid oz, subtract 10% for guts
Method 2) cut open can, fill with water, measure volume of water in oz, subtract 10% for guts
Both results are within a few % of each other.
Had I not done this and just filled to the full line, in reality I would be constantly running 6/10 of a quart below the full mark. But my other worry was running with a oil level too high.
It would have been easier to just calculate the volume of the can by measuring the diameter and length then cutting and filling up the empty can. Full mark on the dipstick 15 min after a hot shutdown is still what I'd be shooting for.
I am starting to get the impression that you do not read my posts. Cutting and filling the empty can is exactly what I did. I used water though, and deducted 10% volume to compensate for the guts.
Method 1) calculate capacity = reported volume in cubic inches , convert to liquid oz, subtract 10% for guts
Method 2) cut open can, fill with water, measure volume of water in oz, subtract 10% for guts
Both results are within a few % of each other.
Had I not done this and just filled to the full line, in reality I would be constantly running 6/10 of a quart below the full mark. But my other worry was running with a oil level too high.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
It would have been easier to just calculate the volume of the can by measuring the diameter and length then cutting and filling up the empty can. Full mark on the dipstick 15 min after a hot shutdown is still what I'd be shooting for.
I am starting to get the impression that you do not read my posts. Cutting and filling the empty can is exactly what I did. I used water though, and deducted 10% volume to compensate for the guts.
Method 1) calculate capacity = reported volume in cubic inches , convert to liquid oz, subtract 10% for guts
Method 2) cut open can, fill with water, measure volume of water in oz, subtract 10% for guts
Both results are within a few % of each other.
Had I not done this and just filled to the full line, in reality I would be constantly running 6/10 of a quart below the full mark. But my other worry was running with a oil level too high.
I'm reading what you're posting - I think you missed my point, which is why go through the trouble of cutting and filling an empty can when you can just calculate it by measuring the diameter and length of the can. As you showed above, you get the same answer. Still don't quite get why you don't believe the dipstick and just add oil until you get the proper level with a hot check 15 min after shutdown.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
It would have been easier to just calculate the volume of the can by measuring the diameter and length then cutting and filling up the empty can. Full mark on the dipstick 15 min after a hot shutdown is still what I'd be shooting for.
I am starting to get the impression that you do not read my posts. Cutting and filling the empty can is exactly what I did. I used water though, and deducted 10% volume to compensate for the guts.
Method 1) calculate capacity = reported volume in cubic inches , convert to liquid oz, subtract 10% for guts
Method 2) cut open can, fill with water, measure volume of water in oz, subtract 10% for guts
Both results are within a few % of each other.
Had I not done this and just filled to the full line, in reality I would be constantly running 6/10 of a quart below the full mark. But my other worry was running with a oil level too high.
I'm reading what you're posting - I think you missed my point, which is why go through the trouble of cutting and filling an empty can when you can just calculate it by measuring the diameter and length of the can. As you showed above, you get the same answer. Still don't quite get why you don't believe the dipstick and just add oil until you get the proper level with a hot check 15 min after shutdown.
As stated before, the filter is mounted upside down. Checking the oil should be done after 15 minutes shutdown on a warm engine, or on a cold engine. This is so the filter contents will drain back into the pan and be registered on the dipstick. Using an oversize filter and following the basic directions will result in an underfilled crankcase when engine is running, in my case by 20 oz but could be worse with an even larger filter. The dipstick is calibrated for this process, so I have to adjust if I want to be accurate. One interesting point- I compared the dipsticks on my 454 Suburban to my boat engine, and also to a 502 engine I am rebuilding in my garage, and to a 8.1 496. I did not expect the 496 to match with anything, but the Suburban 454 and my boat 454 did not match at all, even though I suspected they might match. The boat 454 and the boat 502 matched. As far as the volume of a cylinder calcs vs. what I found on a oil filter xref site, they did closely match at ~65 ci.
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If you use oil filters with a good ADBV (preferably silicone) they won't drain down sitting for just 15 min. My Tacoma V6 has the oil filter mounted vertical with the base down and it can sit for a week and not drain out the filter - verified this with various filters.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
If you use oil filters with a good ADBV (preferably silicone) they won't drain down sitting for just 15 min. My Tacoma V6 has the oil filter mounted vertical with the base down and it can sit for a week and not drain out the filter - verified this with various filters.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
The filters I use in fact have good silicone ADBV. Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. It does not prevent the clean side oil from draining back.
I really wish Mercruiser had stuck with the previous design where the filter was vertical and base up. It also makes for a cleaner change process.
If you use oil filters with a good ADBV (preferably silicone) they won't drain down sitting for just 15 min. My Tacoma V6 has the oil filter mounted vertical with the base down and it can sit for a week and not drain out the filter - verified this with various filters.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
The filters I use in fact have good silicone ADBV. Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. It does not prevent the clean side oil from draining back.
I really wish Mercruiser had stuck with the previous design where the filter was vertical and base up. It also makes for a cleaner change process.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
... Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. ...
How is it possible for the clean oil in the filter to depart if the dirty oil doesn't move, unless something else leaks?
... Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. ...
How is it possible for the clean oil in the filter to depart if the dirty oil doesn't move, unless something else leaks?
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Originally Posted by rubberchicken
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
If you use oil filters with a good ADBV (preferably silicone) they won't drain down sitting for just 15 min. My Tacoma V6 has the oil filter mounted vertical with the base down and it can sit for a week and not drain out the filter - verified this with various filters.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
The filters I use in fact have good silicone ADBV. Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. It does not prevent the clean side oil from draining back. I really wish Mercruiser had stuck with the previous design where the filter was vertical and base up. It also makes for a cleaner change process.
I already talked about the trick of punching a hole in the top of the oil filter if it's mounted vertical with base down. The hole allows the filter to drain out through the center tube (clean side) and back to the sump. That also means the oil can be retained on the clean side of the filter too. There are some rare cases where oil filters will have an "anti-siphon valve in the center tube to keep oil in the filter, but rarely see those kinds of filters in use.
So how are you going to verify the engine has the correct oil level when it's all said and done?
Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
If you use oil filters with a good ADBV (preferably silicone) they won't drain down sitting for just 15 min. My Tacoma V6 has the oil filter mounted vertical with the base down and it can sit for a week and not drain out the filter - verified this with various filters.
I always fill engines to the full line on the dipstick with a hot oil level check. Never had any problems using that procedure fir decades.
The filters I use in fact have good silicone ADBV. Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. It does not prevent the clean side oil from draining back. I really wish Mercruiser had stuck with the previous design where the filter was vertical and base up. It also makes for a cleaner change process.
I already talked about the trick of punching a hole in the top of the oil filter if it's mounted vertical with base down. The hole allows the filter to drain out through the center tube (clean side) and back to the sump. That also means the oil can be retained on the clean side of the filter too. There are some rare cases where oil filters will have an "anti-siphon valve in the center tube to keep oil in the filter, but rarely see those kinds of filters in use.
So how are you going to verify the engine has the correct oil level when it's all said and done?
Originally Posted by CR94
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
... Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. ...
How is it possible for the clean oil in the filter to depart if the dirty oil doesn't move, unless something else leaks?
Thats a really good question !! I can only assume that a slow trickle of air gets up there, as shown by empirical evidence. If I pull the filter too soon, I get a quart of oil everywhere. If I wait and then pull it, most of the oil has drained through the clean side. I have cut open a few used filters and never found a significant problem.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
... Remember the purpose of the ADBV- it prevents dirty oil (and dirt from the filter) from draining back. ...
How is it possible for the clean oil in the filter to depart if the dirty oil doesn't move, unless something else leaks?
Thats a really good question !! I can only assume that a slow trickle of air gets up there, as shown by empirical evidence. If I pull the filter too soon, I get a quart of oil everywhere. If I wait and then pull it, most of the oil has drained through the clean side. I have cut open a few used filters and never found a significant problem.
Our trick with those is to punch one hole directly in the center of the dome, and another hole offset, and insert the oil suction tube (small "down-the-dipstick" one) directly into both holes and suction the oil out of both sides.
We wrap a ring of shop towels around the base to catch anything that seeps through upon filter removal.
Sounds goofy and time consuming, but takes very little effort after you have done it twice.
We wrap a ring of shop towels around the base to catch anything that seeps through upon filter removal.
Sounds goofy and time consuming, but takes very little effort after you have done it twice.
Originally Posted by rubberchicken
This is so the filter contents will drain back into the pan and be registered on the dipstick. Using an oversize filter and following the basic directions will result in an underfilled crankcase when engine is running, in my case by 20 oz but could be worse with an even larger filter. The dipstick is calibrated for this process,...........
No, not really.
You are way overthinking this.
The oil does NOT run down anywhere near as fast as you think it does, even if it's just the tube in the middle.
The difference between the scenario you played out in your head, and what really happens in real life, is maybe an ounce or two.
Pull the stick 30 seconds after shutdown (so the heads can drain), and then check it 15 minutes later. The level won't move more than .125" inch on the dipstick, if even at all.
All said and done..... you aren't starving the oil pickup tube by running your larger filter, hardly.
And zee0six is right, just trust the dipstick and don't overthink it.
This is so the filter contents will drain back into the pan and be registered on the dipstick. Using an oversize filter and following the basic directions will result in an underfilled crankcase when engine is running, in my case by 20 oz but could be worse with an even larger filter. The dipstick is calibrated for this process,...........
No, not really.
You are way overthinking this.
The oil does NOT run down anywhere near as fast as you think it does, even if it's just the tube in the middle.
The difference between the scenario you played out in your head, and what really happens in real life, is maybe an ounce or two.
Pull the stick 30 seconds after shutdown (so the heads can drain), and then check it 15 minutes later. The level won't move more than .125" inch on the dipstick, if even at all.
All said and done..... you aren't starving the oil pickup tube by running your larger filter, hardly.
And zee0six is right, just trust the dipstick and don't overthink it.
That size of filter is the one we ALWAYS use on the big blocks. Fill and check the traditional way. Never had a single incidence of oil starvation, or any other issue. Just fill the sucker, check it, and call it a day.
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