Oversize filters and oil capacity ?

[rubberchicken]

How to determine the oil volume of a filter ?
On my boat I like to use oversize filters. In the Mobil 1 line, the filter M1-111 is the stock replacement. But the M1-302 is an oversize replacement, and from outward appearances holds about 2x the oil. The filter is also mounted upside down i.e. base gasket pointing downwards. I have to let the engine stay off for hours or even days to have the filter mostly drain, otherwise when changing it I have to clean up a huge amount of oil that leaks when I remove the filter.

So how do I figure out how much extra oil to run in the crankcase to compensate for the oversize filter ? I found on oilfilterdata.com a "displacement" rating in sq inches cubed, but this is not the same as volume of oil- in fact I am not sure what the displacement rating means in the context of oil filters. But 1 quart does equal 57.75 cubic inches, so the numbers seem close.

So does filter "displacement" translate exactly into volume of oil contained, or is there other factors I need to add into the equation ?

M1-111 37.74 ci
M1-302 65.55 ci
M1-303 65.55 ci

 

[benjy]

you don't say what engine but a remote filter or two is a good setup as you can mount filters as you want where room allows. i too am a fan of more filter + oil is better, cleaner oil is VERY important + more oil cools better + lasts longer!!!

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: rubberchicken
The filter is also mounted upside down i.e. base gasket pointing downwards. I have to let the engine stay off for hours or even days to have the filter mostly drain, otherwise when changing it I have to clean up a huge amount of oil that leaks when I remove the filter.

So how do I figure out how much extra oil to run in the crankcase to compensate for the oversize filter ?


Old trick I've used since my RX-7 days - and still do today on my Tacoma V6. Punch a hole in the dome of the filter and let it drain hot for 15~20 min. No more mess!

Just top off the engine after it's been ran for a bit to get the oil full on the dipstick. No need to try and figure out how much more a larger filter will take - you'll know after an oil & filter change.

 

[dwendt44]

Or take the next filter off and drain well.
Fill with cheap oil or what ever and then pour
out into an empty qt bottle, and round up as
the media will hold a small amount of oil.


My 2¢

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted By: benjy
you don't say what engine but a remote filter or two is a good setup as you can mount filters as you want where room allows. i too am a fan of more filter + oil is better, cleaner oil is VERY important + more oil cools better + lasts longer!!!


454 7.4 L MPI, already has remote oil filter from factory. Due to the way the mounts and hoses work, it is not possible to remove the mount in order to get to the filter without spilling quite a bit.

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted By: dwendt44
Or take the next filter off and drain well.
Fill with cheap oil or what ever and then pour
out into an empty qt bottle, and round up as
the media will hold a small amount of oil.


My 2¢


This would work, but I just realized that there is a way to directly measure the capacity: cut open the old filter with my oil filter cutter, then measure the can. There will be some margin of error due to the metal pieces and volume of the media, but it should be 95% accurate. This would only work for used filters or filters I am willing to destroy, but it should work.

That said, I would looking for filter specs so I could determine without resorting to trial and error.

 

[ZeeOSix]

What's the value in doing all that when you can just note the total oil volume needed to put the oil level at the full mark on the dipstick vs what it use to take? Don't let can size alone determine the filter volume due to the guts of the filter. A larger filter might give you 3~4 oz more - it's not going to be much.

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
What's the value in doing all that when you can just note the total oil volume needed to put the oil level at the full mark on the dipstick vs what it use to take? Don't let can size alone determine the filter volume due to the guts of the filter. A larger filter might give you 3~4 oz more - it's not going to be much.


In a typical situation you would be correct, but not in this case. The differences in filters are about .6 quart vs 1.2 quarts. These are large filters in a marine 454, although the filters are generally the same as 2500 / 3500 trucks. Also the crankcase is 8+ quarts. And the filter is mounted upside down. If it was mounted so that it never drained, then I would not have to worry about compensating at the dipstick level, but the filter does slowly drain. My goal is to use the oversize filter but make sure I am neither under or overfilling the crankcase.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Check and adjust the oil level using the dipstick when hot after the engine sits for 15 min. You'll probably end up doing that anyway.

No filter is going to drain down in that short time - use filters with a silicone ADBV. You even said the filters puke when removed, so any filter with a good ADBV will stay full for a long time - if not forever. The vertical base down filter on my Tacoma remains full all the time from what I can tell by comparing hot vs cold oil level checks.

 

[dlundblad]

I like to figure out what the readings mean on the dipstick. Is low to high mark exactly 1 quart? Obviously this needs checked with the correct sized filter.

If the over sized filter puts the oil level right in the center of the 2 marks after filling with the correct amount of oil, it's safe to assume the filter adds about half a quart.

So to answer your last question, I'd say yes..

 

[Donald]

Originally Posted By: rubberchicken
How to determine the oil volume of a filter ?
On my boat I like to use oversize filters. In the Mobil 1 line, the filter M1-111 is the stock replacement. But the M1-302 is an oversize replacement, and from outward appearances holds about 2x the oil. The filter is also mounted upside down i.e. base gasket pointing downwards. I have to let the engine stay off for hours or even days to have the filter mostly drain, otherwise when changing it I have to clean up a huge amount of oil that leaks when I remove the filter.

So how do I figure out how much extra oil to run in the crankcase to compensate for the oversize filter ? I found on oilfilterdata.com a "displacement" rating in sq inches cubed, but this is not the same as volume of oil- in fact I am not sure what the displacement rating means in the context of oil filters. But 1 quart does equal 57.75 cubic inches, so the numbers seem close.

So does filter "displacement" translate exactly into volume of oil contained, or is there other factors I need to add into the equation ?

M1-111 37.74 ci
M1-302 65.55 ci
M1-303 65.55 ci


I think an oversize filter is a solution looking for a problem. Extended oil changes, maybe, bypass filter, definitely. Your average car going 6000 to 7500 OCI, not needed.

 

[Hall]

My car calls for 5-1/8 to 5-1/4 quarts and (using Fram p/n) 6607 filter. I put the slightly larger 7317 filter and 5 quarts in at the last oil change and the dipstick reading was 3/4 of the way up the "L" and "H" marks. I realize your scenario is somewhat different but based on my experience and others seeing the same, needing add'l oil because you used an oversize filter seems a bit exaggerated....

 

[ZeeOSix]

If I put a 1 gallon sized oil filter on my car I'd still install enough oil to bring the dipstick to the "Full" mark. Dipstick reading is the only sure way to determine what the oil level is.

 

[RooflessVW]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
I don't know about anyone else, but if I put a 1 gallon sized oil filter on my car I'd still install enough oil to bring the dipstick to the "Full" mark. Dipstick reading is the sure way to determine what the oil level is.

I agree, and I don't understand what the question is here.

Put the filter on dry, fill the engine to full. Start the engine, and whatever you use to bring the level back up to full is surely what the filter holds. The filter won't bleed down in the 30 seconds needed to check the oil level on shutdown.

 

[DGXR]

You can do a rough calculation of the volume of the filter canister using the formula: (Pi x radius^2) x height. (I say rough because filter canisters are typically slightly larger toward the base plate, plus the end of the can is usually a dome shape.) This calculation gives you volume which can be converted to ounces, find the conversion factor online. Compare the volume of the spec filter to the volume of your oversize filter and it will tell you how much more oil to add when running the oversize filter.

volume of a cylinder

Here is the way I see it, the simpler way:
If two different filters fit the same engine, the difference in capacity couldn't be more than 6-8 ounces... insignificant. Everyone thinks you have to have the oil right at the FULL mark, which is not true for normal use. The area on the dipstick between the ADD and FULL marks is called the safe zone. Usually the dipstick says "OK" in this area.

 

[rubberchicken]

Guys- keep in mind that this is A:- a boat and B:- the filter is mounted upside down. When changing the filter I have to let the engine sit for a day so that most of the oil drains back into the pan, in order to prevent a large spill. All the filters I use have ADBV. If I check the oil when the engine is cold, it reads about 3/4 quart too high. If I check it hot after being off for 5 minutes, it reads FULL. In the past I have cut the filters open to check the ADBV and there were no obvious flaws.

Also- just eyeballing the filters clearly shows the difference in volume of oil held is far more than 3-4 oz. The M1-302 and similar filters are pretty darn large. But I think Z06's suggestion of checking oil when the engine is warm and off for about 5 minutes seems the best option. I also need to verify how to check the oil, to rule out some oddball method that Mercruiser uses.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: rubberchicken
When changing the filter I have to let the engine sit for a day so that most of the oil drains back into the pan, in order to prevent a large spill.


As I suggested eatlier, try punching a hole in the top/dome of the filter (engine off of course) and let it drain hot for 20 min. I've been doing that trick on vertical filters for many years, and haven't spilled a drop of oil.

 

[rubberchicken]

RE: Punch a hole in the filter: Yes, I did that in the past. Regarding oil spillage, its about the same results as changing the filter on a cold engine that has been off for 24 hours. Downside is that the filter is still hot.
An interesting thing I just recalled- the older style remote filter mount was cast aluminum and mounted the filter gasket-side up. The newer style is a stamped steel mount and is obviously far cheaper to manufacture. Some owners have swapped in the older style mount, but it requires new hoses, relocation of gear oil reservoir etc., and takes up more space. The hoses are specific Mercruiser parts and are not cheap. So this is an expensive workaround. Another downside is that the old-style mount fastens to the top of the exhaust manifold. On rare occasions the extra vibration causes mount fractures and possible oil loss, which the new mount avoids. I will see if I can find some pics.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: rubberchicken
RE: Punch a hole in the filter: Yes, I did that in the past. Regarding oil spillage, its about the same results as changing the filter on a cold engine that has been off for 24 hours. Downside is that the filter is still hot.


Filter shouldn't still be very hot if you let it sit 20~30 min before unscrewing it from the mount. You have to let it sit awhile after punching the hole so it will drain completely.

 

[rubberchicken]

Originally Posted by ZeeOSix
What's the value in doing all that when you can just note the total oil volume needed to put the oil level at the full mark on the dipstick vs what it use to take? Don't let can size alone determine the filter volume due to the guts of the filter. A larger filter might give you 3~4 oz more - it's not going to be much.


I wanted to follow up on this thread: I found that I had a used M1-302 in my oil drain from the spring, and cut it open and measured the volume of fluid it would hold, which was approx 1.2 quarts and aligns very closely with the 65 ci I found online. This is 20 oz more than the M1-111 filter.