Outside of extended OCIs with ideal usage (all highway), what is the use case for boutique oils?

OVERKILL said:
But I asked you two questions first, let's start there. What did you expect to feel, or see?
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I got the same gas mileage, same wear metals, my oil filter was clean like before, and my engine produced the same power. That's why I didn't feel any difference. You got my answer. Now I want to learn from you, I'm not being rude or anything. Convince me that why I need Boutique oil, why?
 
Why am I getting the feeling that I'm going to destroy HPL's myth, that oils that "meet the spec" leave crap behind 😅
Just 2,500 more miles on it and then I will dissect the oil filter

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Sienna dude said:
I got the same gas mileage, same wear metals, my oil filter was clean like before, and my engine produced the same power. That's why I didn't feel any difference. You got my answer. Now I want to learn from you, I'm not being rude or anything. Convince me that why I need Boutique oil, why?
Click to expand...
OK, so let's go through these:

1. Gas mileage: Mobil noted that going from like a 50 grade to a 30 only improved fuel economy around 1%, so no, I wouldn't expect a different brand of oil in the same grade to have a measurable impact here, certainly not by Joe Average with no lab.

2. UOA's don't directly measure wear. Wear is being inferred from a narrow range of particles below 5 microns that is presented in parts per million. These results cannot be used comparatively to judge wear performance. What you can judge is TBN retention and viscosity loss (with an accompanying VOA).

3. Sounds like your engine is clean running and isn't producing particulate. That's good. Well maintained engines, with the exception of certain engine families (GM's LT engines and the HEMI's for example) generally produce little particulate, it's part of the reason filters have been downsized.

4. Unless you have serious issues with your compression rings (unlikely, you said your engine is well maintained) you won't have any measurable difference in power output.

For AMSOIL, historically, it was about extended drain intervals. If you have an application that's hard on oil, using something that's more resistant to viscosity loss for example, can be a tangible benefit, particularly if your application specs something with a wider spread like a 0W-40 (like my Jeep does), which I doubt is the case for your Sienna.

My 5.7L, despite a life on M1 EP 0W-20, revealed considerable carbon in the oil filter after its first run on HPL. That was eye-opening. That said, I've seen several other examples of different engines that didn't have that experience, so this is not some universal truth. If you have an engine that is clean running and isn't generating this sort of material, or isn't prone to ring coking or other issues (which some engines are), then the potential benefits from a more robust and less constrained formulation approach, or become, insignificant.

So, for your Sienna, there may be no reason at all to run a boutique oil. And I think you had expectations that were unrealistic out of the gate, which, not surprisingly, were not met.
 
Sienna dude said:
I got the same gas mileage, same wear metals, my oil filter was clean like before, and my engine produced the same power. That's why I didn't feel any difference. You got my answer. Now I want to learn from you, I'm not being rude or anything. Convince me that why I need Boutique oil, why?
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You dynoed it multiple times? A clean oil filter doesn’t mean the engine itself is clean. UOAs do NOT accurately measure wear. Do you have any non-fallacious assumptions about your time to back up your claims?

You don’t “need” a boutique oil, but there are certainly places and cases to spend a couple more $ up front to save beacoup $ over the life of the vehicle. Without a long-draining-capable oil, you will spend 3-5x on oil & filters and generate 3-5x the amount of waste. If that’s a “win” for you, well then don’t bother. Enjoy your 1/2 OEM intervals & all the money you’re burning in your ignorance. It is a free country, after all. For now.
 
OVERKILL said:
OK, so let's go through these:

1. Gas mileage: Mobil noted that going from like a 50 grade to a 30 only improved fuel economy around 1%, so no, I wouldn't expect a different brand of oil in the same grade to have a measurable impact here, certainly not by Joe Average with no lab.

2. UOA's don't directly measure wear. Wear is being inferred from a narrow range of particles below 5 microns that is presented in parts per million. These results cannot be used comparatively to judge wear performance. What you can judge is TBN retention and viscosity loss (with an accompanying VOA).

3. Sounds like your engine is clean running and isn't producing particulate. That's good. Well maintained engines, with the exception of certain engine families (GM's LT engines and the HEMI's for example) generally produce little particulate, it's part of the reason filters have been downsized.

4. Unless you have serious issues with your compression rings (unlikely, you said your engine is well maintained) you won't have any measurable difference in power output.

For AMSOIL, historically, it was about extended drain intervals. If you have an application that's hard on oil, using something that's more resistant to viscosity loss for example, can be a tangible benefit, particularly if your application specs something with a wider spread like a 0W-40 (like my Jeep does), which I doubt is the case for your Sienna.

My 5.7L, despite a life on M1 EP 0W-20, revealed considerable carbon in the oil filter after its first run on HPL. That was eye-opening. That said, I've seen several other examples of different engines that didn't have that experience, so this is not some universal truth. If you have an engine that is clean running and isn't generating this sort of material, or isn't prone to ring coking or other issues (which some engines are), then the potential benefits from a more robust and less constrained formulation approach, or become, insignificant.

So, for your Sienna, there may be no reason at all to run a boutique oil. And I think you had expectations that were unrealistic out of the gate, which, not surprisingly, were not met.
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In short, well maintained and smartly driven vehicles don't need the so called Boutique oils. I am such a fanatic I don't even drive uphill until my oil reaches 100 degrees.
Thank you. And if you are an HPL fanboy, with all due respect, apologies in advance for breaking your heart. The verdict will come in a couple of months.

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Sienna dude said:
In short, well maintained and smartly driven vehicles don't need the so called Boutique oils.
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Well, some of them would benefit from them, others may not. It depends on the engine and what the OEM specifies, as I stated.
Sienna dude said:
I am such a fanatic I don't even drive uphill until my oil reaches 100 degrees.
Thank you. And if you are an HPL fanboy, with all due respect, apologies in advance for breaking your heart. The verdict will come in a couple of months.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, if you read my post thoroughly, you'll note that I said not all people that switched to HPL got material in their filters. It depends on the equipment. Your Sienna NOT having material in the filter doesn't negate my RAM 1500 that did, follow? It just underscores the differences in how different pieces of equipment behave and challenge their lubricant.
 
OVERKILL said:
Well, some of them would benefit from them, others may not. It depends on the engine and what the OEM specifies, as I stated.

With all due respect, if you read my post thoroughly, you'll note that I said not all people that switched to HPL got material in their filters. It depends on the equipment. Your Sienna NOT having material in the filter doesn't negate my RAM 1500 that did, follow? It just underscores the differences in how different pieces of equipment behave and challenge their lubricant.
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Never owned an FCA vehicle so can't comment.
 
Sienna dude said:
Never owned an FCA vehicle so can't comment.
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It's not an FCA problem, it's just a "different engines do different things" problem. GM's LT-family produce a lot of material too, that's why there's an oil filter TSB for them, they plug up the high efficiency filters.

Toyota has had ring coking problems with their factory OCI's and due to poor ring and oil control ring drainback designs:



And there's also a scuffing issue (related to stuck rings):
 
OVERKILL said:
It's not an FCA problem, it's just a "different engines do different things" problem. GM's LT-family produce a lot of material too, that's why there's an oil filter TSB for them, they plug up the high efficiency filters.

Toyota has had ring coking problems with their factory OCI's and due to poor ring and oil control ring drainback designs:



And there's also a scuffing issue (related to stuck rings):
Click to expand...

I highly doubt Boutique oils could work if a motor has a design flaw.
 
Sienna dude said:
I highly doubt Boutique oils could work if a motor has a design flaw.
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Doesn't even have to be a boutique oil, could just be a more heavily additized premium oil like Mobil 1 0W-40. @Trav has mentioned that he stopped the notorious Honda 3.5 VCM engine ring coking problem by running a Euro 5W-40 or 0W-40 (M1 0W-40 was specifically mentioned).

Oils aren't formulated to clean (with the exception of Valvoline R&P), they are formulated to try and keep things clean enough to pass the requisite API testing. There are some base oils (AN's and esters) that are capable of actually cleaning up existing deposits, not just working to prevent them from accruing. So, depending on the severity of the issue, yes, it's quite possible that it could be mitigated by the use of a lubricant that has an active cleaning capability.

Now, if the engine has a mechanical issue, like improper heat treating or something, no, but if it's something to do with deposit build up of coke, varnish or lacquer, then yes, the choice of lubricant can in fact influence the end result.
 
OVERKILL said:
It's not an FCA problem, it's just a "different engines do different things" problem. GM's LT-family produce a lot of material too, that's why there's an oil filter TSB for them, they plug up the high efficiency filters.

Toyota has had ring coking problems with their factory OCI's and due to poor ring and oil control ring drainback designs:



And there's also a scuffing issue (related to stuck rings):
Click to expand...

I saw a Camry owner here whose wear numbers looked slightly better than mine. We have the same motor. He used HPL 0w30. There can be three possibilities. 1) His Camry is not a mule like my poor van that hauls groups of people with a lot of luggage. 2) HPL did the trick(I doubt it after Amsoil use) 3) Higher viscosity did the trick.
That's why I will use Mobil 1 Truck & SUV next to see if it makes any difference. First use of 0w-20 in 200,000 miles.
O'Reilly's matched Walmart price. Will keep folks here posted.


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Sienna dude said:
I saw a Camry owner here whose wear numbers looked slightly better than mine. We have the same motor. He used HPL 0w30. There can be three possibilities. 1) His Camry is not a mule like my poor van that hauls groups of people with a lot of luggage. 2) HPL did the trick(I doubt it after Amsoil use) 3) Higher viscosity did the trick.
That's why I will use Mobil 1 Truck & SUV next to see if it makes any difference.
O'Reilly's matched Walmart price. Will keep folks here posted.


View attachment 275054
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Or 4) You can't compare UOA numbers because the tool simply lacks the resolution. Remember, we are talking parts per million, a couple here or there is immaterial. The tool isn't designed to be used in this manner, it's purpose is to track the health (continued serviceability) of the lubricant (contamination levels, remaining TBN, fuel %...etc) and provide insight on potential mechanical issues with the equipment, such as coolant or fuel ingress, air intake tract leaks (large increase in silicon), or a part failing (large spike in a particular metal like aluminum).
 
O'Reilly's matches Walmart prices. I didn't know that. But the deal is that Walmart oil should be available for pickup at Walmart, not delivery. But this O'Reilly's employee was such a rookie, he didn't pay attention and he gave me the deal. I'll take it lol.
 
OVERKILL said:
Or 4) You can't compare UOA numbers because the tool simply lacks the resolution. Remember, we are talking parts per million, a couple here or there is immaterial. The tool isn't designed to be used in this manner, it's purpose is to track the health (continued serviceability) of the lubricant (contamination levels, remaining TBN, fuel %...etc) and provide insight on potential mechanical issues with the equipment, such as coolant or fuel ingress, air intake tract leaks (large increase in silicon), or a part failing (large spike in a particular metal like aluminum).
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The thing is that I have done 4 UOAs so far, and numbers look identical. Used different brands of 0w-16 each time and in different weather. If 0w-20 numbers deviate from the past then it raises a question. 0W-20 UOA will be done in same weather and similar conditions as the Pennzoil 0w-16 last year. Plus I do UOA on the second use of a different brand to make sure result is accurate. I am excited and curious. I was a believer in 0w-16 until I saw that Camry's 0w-30 UOA. Now I have some doubts lol.
 
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