Outside of extended OCIs with ideal usage (all highway), what is the use case for boutique oils?

[4WD]

$160,000 for a minivan with a 2.5 L 4 banger. Japanese are just different. This thread got derailed big time. Back to Boutique oils

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Inspired by nature:

 

[tired]

Not just the motor, this van has been extremely bulletproof for me. Since I bought it, the doors have been opened and closed, then opened and closed 15,000+ times. And it still works, just push of a button. How do I know 15,000 times? Because I've had 15,000 rides on Uber and Lyft since I bought this van.
The crazy thing is that it's the first year model of a new generation. I consider myself very lucky

Look at the size of that thing, it can have the Toyota Sequoia for a snack. Minivan is the real deal.

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Sienna is an excellent car, no doubt. And you perfectly describe why most American men who think they need a truck would be better served by a minivan.

 

[Sienna dude]

Manufacturers use to define severe service in the owners manual with viscosity charts but thanks to cafe it’s rare now. If my memory serves me it was above/below a certain temp, short trips, stop and go traffic, towing, plowing, extended idle, mountainous terrain etc. I personally like using oil temperature if available.

Toyotas don't show you the oil temp generally. Since this motor is known for fuel dilution(I have seen some extreme cases of it here), I like to keep an eye on my oil temp. I have mounted that reader there permanently lol.
This motor runs pretty cold. 180 degrees is the max temp I have ever seen on this thing. Maybe that's why 0w16 works fine. That's why I never bothered using anything other than what the oil cap says. At those temps it is pretty much acting like a 0w20. At temps like 210+ is when one needs to worry. The only issue is fuel. If I was a chonic short tripper I would have to forget using 0w16.

 

[Sienna dude]

The thing shuts off even when coasting at 70 mph, and comes back to life in an instant. Pretty neat technology and amazingly durable.

I am still on my factory brakes. I coast at every opportunity. Haven't slammed my brakes for months or years.

 

[TiGeo]

HPL for me in my a Sportwagen due to track use. It's shown that it will maintain viscosity better than other oils I've run in this severe use case. That's ~3 hours at WOT/260-280 deg F oil temp for a typical 2-day event. I changed my oil once last year with HPL Euro 5W40 with 8.5K miles and 8 track events/~13 hours. Could I use whatever brand xW40? Sure. I'd just change it more frequently. I run it in my W8 Passat as well that just sees mundane daily use. Will have 2 years/8K on this oil when I change it next I estimate. Same thing here...could do that with any Euro oil but feel better using HPL in this case to clean/keep those timing chains in good shape and have excellent viscosity retention. I use Liquimoly in the Atlas and do "normal" 5K mile changes and those are free from FCP...think I may swap to HPL in that one too and double the OCI....maybe...

 

[Sienna dude]

HPL for me in my a Sportwagen due to track use. It's shown that it will maintain viscosity better than other oils I've run in this severe use case. That's ~3 hours at WOT/260-280 deg F oil temp for a typical 2-day event. I changed my oil once last year with HPL Euro 5W40 with 8.5K miles and 8 track events/~13 hours. Could I use whatever brand xW40? Sure. I'd just change it more frequently. I run it in my W8 Passat as well that just sees mundane daily use. Will have 2 years/8K on this oil when I change it next I estimate. Same thing here...could do that with any Euro oil but feel better using HPL in this case to clean/keep those timing chains in good shape and have excellent viscosity retention.

280 degrees wow

 

[UncleDave]

If you don't need it great.
Probably wouldn't have made much diff in my RX400's 3mzfe, VQ30, or Vq35,

My VK56 and J35 are different.
Honda J35's spins really high to make power on one end, and on the other cylinder deactivation is hard on oil and rings add in DI soot and it can buildup even using sn sn+.

I ran ester based oil as an experiment for myself to prove I didnt need to, sound familiar?
The material in the filter demonstrated otherwise (all filters cut and inspected from day 1)
There was definite and documented carbon liberation that was not there when running shelf oil. (M1, PP,Napa, Idemitsu)

VK 56 runs very clean, but is a known shearer.
You can get twice the sump life out of it if you can keep it in grade.

If you dont gain any tangible benefit, slide back to off the shelf stuff and save a few bucks.

 

[tired]

Your thread actually gave me a new idea. I don’t wanna waste $100 worth of oil for a short winter run. VRP costs about $30 and I do believe is the real deal. I’m going to use HPL, Torco or Schaffers all summer. Then use VRP during the winter. Sounds like a plan. I’ll still stick to my OLM during the summer but winter will be 11-1 thru 3-31.

Just wonder as I contemplate a plan like this, are we getting this backwards? Shouldn't the higher quality oil go in during the winter? Would be more resistant to viscosity loss etc?

 

[tired]

If you don't need it great.
Probably wouldn't have made much diff in my RX400's 3mzfe, VQ30, or Vq35,

My VK56 and J35 are different.
Honda J35's spins really high to make power on one end, and on the other cylinder deactivation is hard on oil and rings add in DI soot and it can buildup even using sn sn+.

I ran ester based oil as an experiment for myself to prove I didnt need to, sound familiar?
The material in the filter demonstrated otherwise (all filters cut and inspected from day 1)
There was definite and documented carbon liberation that was not there when running shelf oil. (M1, PP,Napa, Idemitsu)

VK 56 runs very clean, but is a known shearer.
You can get twice the sump life out of it if you can keep it in grade.

If you dont gain any tangible benefit, slide back to off the shelf stuff and save a few bucks.

Yeah I'm starting to warm up to the idea that a boutique may be worth the cost. Might just see the 4 OCIs on Valvoline Restore and Protect through (and use up the oil I have) but I can see the benefit and logic behind the marginal cost increase relative to total operating costs of the cars.

 

[D1dad]

Just wonder as I contemplate a plan like this, are we getting this backwards? Shouldn't the higher quality oil go in during the winter? Would be more resistant to viscosity loss etc?

Depends on driving habits. I dumped $100 of hpl with only 7k on it and am getting ready to do the same thing with Schaeffers that’s been in the car since thanksgiving. Lots of idling and short trip in a GDI made for some nasty oil. 7k is nothing to sneeze at, but that’s out of character for my winter driving and not the full length of the OLM. I’ll cry less with $30 worth of VRP that may do something I wasn’t expecting the oil to do. My local farm store has VRP for $21.99 after a $5 rebate. That’s lunch now days.

 

[TiGeo]

I should mention the 22 year old Passat with the goofball W8 engine...zero carbon in filter I changed mid-OCI with HPL.

 

[TiGeo]

Why the great concern with winter driving and using an oil like HPL? That's one reason TO use it!

 

[OVERKILL]

Is your view that there’s nothing valuable in a UOA? I remember asking you in the past what sources of info you consider legitimate and you never responded. Do you consider UOA a source of legitimate info?

I went back and searched your username for UOA as well as for my username, just in case I missed something. I wasn't able to locate any post where you directed this question at me, sorry.

UOA's, used properly, are very useful tools, a position I've made quite clear several times in the past, and this is base on my extensive discussions with people like Doug Hillary, who used them professionally as part of a fleet testing regimen.

The problem, and my criticism, of UOA's used recreationally, is that people attempt to ascribe a level of accuracy and detail to the tool that it isn't capable of providing, particularly the $30 type we so often see on here from Blackstone, which don't even include GC fuel.

This is like trying to use post-processed sampling of a municipal waste stream to determine what the best medication is "oh, we got a 2ppm uptick in this bacteria, Kirkland brand ibuprofen must be inferior to Tylenol!". It can tell you if you got an outbreak of C-Diff for example, but it doesn't tell you where (though you will have an idea as to the potential sources) or how severe it is. Minute variances of expected components are not a barometer for product quality/performance.

Of course people want UOA's to be this inexpensive and convenient source of profound insight into lubricant performance, because how awesome would it be if you could just get a series of UOA's of different brands and know which oil is the "best"? It scratches an itch. But that's not the purpose of the tool.

UOA's are intentioned to provide data on the health of a lubricant in service and to inform as to the suitability for continued use (overall contamination levels, TBN/TAN, fuel...etc). As well as to provide insight as to any unexpected contaminants or potential developing mechanical issues. This involves establishing a trend, then watching for significant deviations from that trend, which, if this occurs, is an actionable item, prompting further investigation into the source of the contamination, such as a coolant leak, air intake tract leak, cam follower failing...etc. Used in this manner, you can maximize the service life of the lubricant while also gaining insight into potential issues with the equipment. This can work to minimize downtime as well as aide in avoiding expensive issues by catching them early.

 

[UncleDave]

Yeah I'm starting to warm up to the idea that a boutique may be worth the cost. Might just see the 4 OCIs on Valvoline Restore and Protect through (and use up the oil I have) but I can see the benefit and logic behind the marginal cost increase relative to total operating costs of the cars.

I would posit with a just a bit of planning around sales, it's possible for a DIY guy to run boutique less expensively than pulling into a lube shop and ordering " full synthetic".

 

[Tom NJ]

UOAs do not tell you what the oil did to the engine - they tell you what the engine did to the oil.

 

[WiskyBadger]

I can't tell you how many times I have stolen the Suburban's and Tahoe's lunch because they could not take enough luggage. And I got 37 mpg in the process.
Man if Toyota brings that Lexus version here at a lower price, I will be the first to buy it. I will get the black on black and turn it into a limousine.

Let me know when you’re towing while hauling the luggage, while also having 4wd. That’s the difference. Tahoes and Suburbans aren’t in the same class of a minivan. Both have different purposes.

 

[Hohn]

The use case is that even with a high buck boutique oil, the cost per mile is dwarfed by the cost of fuel.
Heck, even with a very costly oil, allocable tire expense will outweigh the cost of the oil.
If an owner feels better using a costly oil which might provide better engine protection or cleanliness, the marginal cost allocable over the time or miles run just isn't all that much.
Same reason I buy Michelins over some less costly choice. I think it's worth it and the allocable cost difference isn't all that much.

This is frankly a big part of it.

I don't think you can justify the expensive of niche oils purely on UOAs are similar measures of "performance."

At some point it become an intangible "I want the very best that exists, and I can afford to indulge it."

 

[ripcord]

This is frankly a big part of it.

I don't think you can justify the expensive of niche oils purely on UOAs are similar measures of "performance."

At some point it become an intangible "I want the very best that exists, and I can afford to indulge it."

Bingo. Most folks would be better served by spending the extra money on better tires, rust proofing, more frequent transmission services, etc

 

[Hohn]

Bingo. Most folks would be better served by spending the extra money on better tires, rust proofing, more frequent transmission services, etc

Yes. I'll readily confess that I use HPL stuff and it might produce no measurable difference on my vehicles over the period I expect to own them (even though that's much longer than most). It's also why I use V Power Nitro fuel in my Accord even though it's fine on 87 octane. I feel better. And it's worth it to me, irrational as it is.

 

[Patman]

UOAs do not tell you what the oil did to the engine - they tell you what the engine did to the oil.

That’s a really good way of putting it!