Outhink the manufacturer.
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Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
No, in their perfect world there would be no parts dept and you would just take it to the dealer for service.
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
No, in their perfect world there would be no parts dept and you would just take it to the dealer for service.
Originally Posted By: hatt
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.
I think the Vette also suggests something way heavier for track use.
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.
I think the Vette also suggests something way heavier for track use.
Something else to consider here, if we take the assumption that "the engineers know best" as a truth...
The engineers know best, how the engine performs and what oils, etc.. work best with the engine -when it is new-
My 5-year-old Fusion is going to roll over the 200,000 mile mark today on my drive home from work. While I've paid close attention to it, and done everything I could to minimize wear in the engine, I'm pretty much certain that it doesn't look the same inside, or act the same, as it did when it was being assembled, or even rolling on to the dealership lot. A lot of things change over 5 years and 200k miles.
If the engineer came to my house this weekend and talked with me about the car, I'd wager that there are quite a few things about it that I would know and he does not.
Would I still trust his input? Yes.
Would I make some of my own decisions based on my experience with the car? Definitely.
The engineers know best, how the engine performs and what oils, etc.. work best with the engine -when it is new-
My 5-year-old Fusion is going to roll over the 200,000 mile mark today on my drive home from work. While I've paid close attention to it, and done everything I could to minimize wear in the engine, I'm pretty much certain that it doesn't look the same inside, or act the same, as it did when it was being assembled, or even rolling on to the dealership lot. A lot of things change over 5 years and 200k miles.
If the engineer came to my house this weekend and talked with me about the car, I'd wager that there are quite a few things about it that I would know and he does not.
Would I still trust his input? Yes.
Would I make some of my own decisions based on my experience with the car? Definitely.
After reading the posts in this thread, many have made valid points.
Will there be instances where the manufacturer gets it wrong, yes, but I maintain those instances are very rare.
Before I went to college I worked in the quick lube industry for many years and I can tell you some stories about how people DID NOT take care of their car.
There was the woman that thought as long as it started, the oil was OK.
One guy said you only needed to change oil when the oil light came on.
Then there was the idiot that decided to put straight 30W non detergent oil in his car.
Trust me, the number of people that DON'T take care of their car as they should is a much larger number than you think.
So I still maintain that if the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is followed, the engine will outlast the vehicle it is put in to.
Will there be instances where the manufacturer gets it wrong, yes, but I maintain those instances are very rare.
Before I went to college I worked in the quick lube industry for many years and I can tell you some stories about how people DID NOT take care of their car.
There was the woman that thought as long as it started, the oil was OK.
One guy said you only needed to change oil when the oil light came on.
Then there was the idiot that decided to put straight 30W non detergent oil in his car.
Trust me, the number of people that DON'T take care of their car as they should is a much larger number than you think.
So I still maintain that if the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is followed, the engine will outlast the vehicle it is put in to.
"Hair splitting" = pswtc or picking s*#@ with the chickens.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs.
What testing criteria did you use to determine this? What were the results of the testing?
Did you read my post?
Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use.
Relax a little and don't take what I said to have any deeper of a meaning than that. Jeesh. You're a fellow F-150 owner, you should know about the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate. Both will work just fine! I could use 5w-20 without issue. But I use 5w-30 because it's what my generation of F-150 used the previous 3 or 4 years before my year.
I think people take the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate (specifically regarding the Triton engines) too far. It's not that big of a deal. Run what you want.
~ Triton
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs.
What testing criteria did you use to determine this? What were the results of the testing?
Did you read my post?
Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use.
Relax a little and don't take what I said to have any deeper of a meaning than that. Jeesh. You're a fellow F-150 owner, you should know about the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate. Both will work just fine! I could use 5w-20 without issue. But I use 5w-30 because it's what my generation of F-150 used the previous 3 or 4 years before my year.
I think people take the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate (specifically regarding the Triton engines) too far. It's not that big of a deal. Run what you want.
~ Triton
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use.
~ Triton
EXACTLY, so rather than switch my '98 that was orig specked for 5w-30 to 5W-20, I switched the '07 from 5W-20 to 5W-30 and now using oil that meets dexos-1(as well as several other specs)
Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use.
~ Triton
EXACTLY, so rather than switch my '98 that was orig specked for 5w-30 to 5W-20, I switched the '07 from 5W-20 to 5W-30 and now using oil that meets dexos-1(as well as several other specs)
So, I have an old car that calls for MS (not SM) oil. Do I stick to the factory recommendation? Just where do I find it? So, once a new oil spec comes out, is it really best for an older vehicle?
The whole "engineers know best" thing makes me laugh. So no vehicle ever had a TSB written to address design flaws or unexpected failure modes?
Manufacturers never supercede part numbers for older vehicles? (Besides GM ignition switches)
Why do whole lines of "problem solver" aftermarket parts even exist, if the factory got everything right in the first place?
I guess Ford 6.0 PS owners are overflowing with confidence in factory engineers?
SirTalon nails one aspect of it. As our vehicles age, they get into degraded and failure modes never anticipated by the factory. When was the last time you saw a video of an engineer throwing salt into the suspension on a test treadmill?
Why do US owners manuals allow for more than one grade of oil on most vehicles? Why can't they just "get it right" with one try?
If the owners manual is so perfect in its oil recommendation, why do back specs even exist?
The whole "engineers know best" thing makes me laugh. So no vehicle ever had a TSB written to address design flaws or unexpected failure modes?
Manufacturers never supercede part numbers for older vehicles? (Besides GM ignition switches)
Why do whole lines of "problem solver" aftermarket parts even exist, if the factory got everything right in the first place?
I guess Ford 6.0 PS owners are overflowing with confidence in factory engineers?
SirTalon nails one aspect of it. As our vehicles age, they get into degraded and failure modes never anticipated by the factory. When was the last time you saw a video of an engineer throwing salt into the suspension on a test treadmill?
Why do US owners manuals allow for more than one grade of oil on most vehicles? Why can't they just "get it right" with one try?
If the owners manual is so perfect in its oil recommendation, why do back specs even exist?
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Originally Posted By: HangFire
I guess Ford 6.0 PS owners are overflowing with confidence in factory engineers?
Technically International's Engineers but yeah, it would appear as though the effects of the various emissions implements on that engine weren't tested as well as they should have been.
I guess Ford 6.0 PS owners are overflowing with confidence in factory engineers?
Technically International's Engineers but yeah, it would appear as though the effects of the various emissions implements on that engine weren't tested as well as they should have been.
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Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs.
What testing criteria did you use to determine this? What were the results of the testing?
Did you read my post? Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use. Relax a little and don't take what I said to have any deeper of a meaning than that. Jeesh. You're a fellow F-150 owner, you should know about the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate. Both will work just fine! I could use 5w-20 without issue. But I use 5w-30 because it's what my generation of F-150 used the previous 3 or 4 years before my year. I think people take the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate (specifically regarding the Triton engines) too far. It's not that big of a deal. Run what you want.
Yes, of course I read your post. But you said "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs." Therefore, I wanted you to expound on what that means via some testing criteria--since the engine seems to "need" to run thicker oil.
However, what I now gather you meant to say is "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what you really want to." Nothing wrong with that, but there is a slight difference between the two--one is fact based and the other emotion based.
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4
Originally Posted By: Triton_330
Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs.
What testing criteria did you use to determine this? What were the results of the testing?
Did you read my post? Ford specified 5w-30 for the 4.6L and 5.4L in the late 90s, then changed it to 5w-20 in the early 2000's because of CAFE. My "outside the spec" line was referring to me using 5w-30 because that is what the Ford Engineer's thought the engine should use, rather than what CAFE says to use. Relax a little and don't take what I said to have any deeper of a meaning than that. Jeesh. You're a fellow F-150 owner, you should know about the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate. Both will work just fine! I could use 5w-20 without issue. But I use 5w-30 because it's what my generation of F-150 used the previous 3 or 4 years before my year. I think people take the 5w-20 vs 5w-30 debate (specifically regarding the Triton engines) too far. It's not that big of a deal. Run what you want.
Yes, of course I read your post. But you said "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what your engine really needs." Therefore, I wanted you to expound on what that means via some testing criteria--since the engine seems to "need" to run thicker oil.
However, what I now gather you meant to say is "Sometimes you gotta think outside the spec to use what you really want to." Nothing wrong with that, but there is a slight difference between the two--one is fact based and the other emotion based.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
That's pretty darn funny!
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
That's pretty darn funny!
Originally Posted By: Bigdaddyeasy
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
That's pretty darn funny!
Dont say that too loud. Pretty soon, changing your own oil will be illegal.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
We should all be adhering to the manufacturer's recommended viscosity and buying the oil from the dealer.
In a perfect world, you'd walk into the dealer with your VIN number in hand and give it to the guy behind the counter. He'd then sell you a case of oil in the correct viscosity according to your VIN number. Buying oil in whichever brand or viscosity you wanted from Walmart would be illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in the State Pen.
That's pretty darn funny!
Dont say that too loud. Pretty soon, changing your own oil will be illegal.
Originally Posted By: hatt
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.
Very good point. What bone head over at ford decided to spec 5w20 only for a5.0 stang. Then some trusting Joe takes it to the track and "Pow"!!!
Lol ok maybe the whole car doesn't blow up but...
You have to look no further that the 5.0 in Mustangs to know manufacturer requirements contain shenanigans.
Very good point. What bone head over at ford decided to spec 5w20 only for a5.0 stang. Then some trusting Joe takes it to the track and "Pow"!!!
Lol ok maybe the whole car doesn't blow up but...
Many on here think they know better than the engineers who designed the cars. Yes, the engineers don't always get it right but they probably know more than most on here. However, those who think they know more than the engineers is what makes BITOG so entertaining.
After all....it's not just about oil.
After all....it's not just about oil.
Originally Posted By: stchman
Originally Posted By: GM4LIFE
I just hope you don't plan on running the PF48E e-core oil filter. Stay away from all e-core oil filters. The PF48 oil filter you are using has been discontinued in favor of the PF48E part number. Do yourself a favor and get the PF63 oil filter instead or a Fram Ultra XG 10575. Mobil 1 5W30 is perfect for your truck, but Mobil 1 is NOT the factory fill and it isn't what GM dealers use for oil changes on 99% of GM vehicles.
People keep saying that you can substitute a PF63 for a PF48. If for some reason I have to have warranty service on my engine, I could see the dealer giving me a hard time for putting the wrong oil filter. I have about 10 PF48 oil filters left in my stash. When they run out, I will have to get a different filter. Maybe I can find a few PF48s in excess stock at some stores.
Mobil 1 used to be the factory fill on Corvettes, it might still be.
My girlfriend has a Malibu and the dealer changes the oil, they use AC Delco semi synthetic oil.
Mobil 1 is ONLY factory fill in C7 Corvettes that are equipped with the Z51 package and the C7/Z06. Any Corvette equipped with a dry sump lubrication system comes factory filled with Mobil 1. The standard NON-Z51 equipped Corvettes come from the factory with the AC Delco synthetic blend oil. The ONLY other GM vehicle to roll off the assembly line with Mobil 1 is the Camaro Z/28 since that is an LS7 equipped vehicle and all LS7 engines have the dry sump lubrication system.
Here is the GM service bulletin that says the PF63 is actually recommended in place of the PF48 oil filter due to it's identical internals and increased filtering media.
Here is the GM bulletin stating that you can run the PF63 safely and that is has more filtering media:
Service Information Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
Document ID: 2597264
#PIP4889: Engine Break In Oil Filter Number PF48 From New Delivery - Not The Same As The Service Number PF63 In Owners Manual - (Mar 8, 2011)
Subject: Engine Break In Oil Filter number PF48 From New Delivery - Not The Same As The Service number PF63 In Owners Manual
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment that the oil filter # the engine came from the factory with is not the same # required for service per the owners manual and gm parts catalog. Engine was delivered with AC Delco PF48 and Service Oil Filter is AC Delco PF63
Recommendation/Instructions:
The PF63 filter has the same high quality attributes as the PF48 with but is 22mm longer which will provide an additional 22 mm of media filtration material. There will also be additional filtration protection during high mileage oil change intervals. The PF63 filter is a NEW release for the 2011 model year. These 2011 engines will be built with a break in oil filter of PF48 with service replacement being PF63.
The PF63 filter can be used on all M/Y vehicles if the PF48 is the service filter.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
Originally Posted By: GM4LIFE
I just hope you don't plan on running the PF48E e-core oil filter. Stay away from all e-core oil filters. The PF48 oil filter you are using has been discontinued in favor of the PF48E part number. Do yourself a favor and get the PF63 oil filter instead or a Fram Ultra XG 10575. Mobil 1 5W30 is perfect for your truck, but Mobil 1 is NOT the factory fill and it isn't what GM dealers use for oil changes on 99% of GM vehicles.
People keep saying that you can substitute a PF63 for a PF48. If for some reason I have to have warranty service on my engine, I could see the dealer giving me a hard time for putting the wrong oil filter. I have about 10 PF48 oil filters left in my stash. When they run out, I will have to get a different filter. Maybe I can find a few PF48s in excess stock at some stores.
Mobil 1 used to be the factory fill on Corvettes, it might still be.
My girlfriend has a Malibu and the dealer changes the oil, they use AC Delco semi synthetic oil.
Mobil 1 is ONLY factory fill in C7 Corvettes that are equipped with the Z51 package and the C7/Z06. Any Corvette equipped with a dry sump lubrication system comes factory filled with Mobil 1. The standard NON-Z51 equipped Corvettes come from the factory with the AC Delco synthetic blend oil. The ONLY other GM vehicle to roll off the assembly line with Mobil 1 is the Camaro Z/28 since that is an LS7 equipped vehicle and all LS7 engines have the dry sump lubrication system.
Here is the GM service bulletin that says the PF63 is actually recommended in place of the PF48 oil filter due to it's identical internals and increased filtering media.
Here is the GM bulletin stating that you can run the PF63 safely and that is has more filtering media:
Service Information Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
Document ID: 2597264
#PIP4889: Engine Break In Oil Filter Number PF48 From New Delivery - Not The Same As The Service Number PF63 In Owners Manual - (Mar 8, 2011)
Subject: Engine Break In Oil Filter number PF48 From New Delivery - Not The Same As The Service number PF63 In Owners Manual
Condition/Concern:
Some customers may comment that the oil filter # the engine came from the factory with is not the same # required for service per the owners manual and gm parts catalog. Engine was delivered with AC Delco PF48 and Service Oil Filter is AC Delco PF63
Recommendation/Instructions:
The PF63 filter has the same high quality attributes as the PF48 with but is 22mm longer which will provide an additional 22 mm of media filtration material. There will also be additional filtration protection during high mileage oil change intervals. The PF63 filter is a NEW release for the 2011 model year. These 2011 engines will be built with a break in oil filter of PF48 with service replacement being PF63.
The PF63 filter can be used on all M/Y vehicles if the PF48 is the service filter.
Please follow this diagnostic or repair process thoroughly and complete each step. If the condition exhibited is resolved without completing every step, the remaining steps do not need to be performed.
Originally Posted By: CKN
Many on here think they know better than the engineers who designed the cars. Yes, the engineers don't always get it right but they probably know more than most on here. However, those who think they know more than the engineers is what makes BITOG so entertaining.
After all....it's not just about oil.
I think the engineers probably do the best they can with what their given to work with. However I think their restrained to an extent and left to try and make do with options they probably would not limit themselves to apart from the influences of standards such as CAFE etc.
Many on here think they know better than the engineers who designed the cars. Yes, the engineers don't always get it right but they probably know more than most on here. However, those who think they know more than the engineers is what makes BITOG so entertaining.
After all....it's not just about oil.
I think the engineers probably do the best they can with what their given to work with. However I think their restrained to an extent and left to try and make do with options they probably would not limit themselves to apart from the influences of standards such as CAFE etc.
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