Only one approval to run in all of your vehicles - which one?
- Thread starter SugarMouth
- Start date
A3/B4
MB 229.5 because it's A3/B4 on steroids (but I agree the same could be said about Porsche A40 and a few others). But I like the low Noack standard used by MB.
From the oil formulator Weasley:
"Take MB229.5 for example. This is a specification document that defines what physical, chemical and performance properties an oil must meet in order to be certified as appropriate for use in the relevant Mercedes engines. It contains over 40 data points for lab testing and 9 separate engine tests, some with up to 20 individual parameters measured, rated and reported. The engine tests cover sludge formation, wear, fuel economy, aeration, LSPI and fuel-induced deposits. To run all of these tests to qualify an oil costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time, and there's no guarantee of hitting each one first time, so some tests will have to be repeated on reformulated candidates. Once you have a full suite of results that pass every required limit you apply to MB for an approval and, assuming they accept your data, they will officially record the oil as approved, send you a letter to prove it and put it on their BeVo database for everybody to see.
...
And let's not forget, in many cases an oil has not only jumped the MB high jump bar, but also ... in order to qualify for these high jump competitions at all you have to qualify at the ACEA prelims - another specification standard that underpins all of the European OEM specifications."
Ref:
From the oil formulator Weasley:
"Take MB229.5 for example. This is a specification document that defines what physical, chemical and performance properties an oil must meet in order to be certified as appropriate for use in the relevant Mercedes engines. It contains over 40 data points for lab testing and 9 separate engine tests, some with up to 20 individual parameters measured, rated and reported. The engine tests cover sludge formation, wear, fuel economy, aeration, LSPI and fuel-induced deposits. To run all of these tests to qualify an oil costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time, and there's no guarantee of hitting each one first time, so some tests will have to be repeated on reformulated candidates. Once you have a full suite of results that pass every required limit you apply to MB for an approval and, assuming they accept your data, they will officially record the oil as approved, send you a letter to prove it and put it on their BeVo database for everybody to see.
...
And let's not forget, in many cases an oil has not only jumped the MB high jump bar, but also ... in order to qualify for these high jump competitions at all you have to qualify at the ACEA prelims - another specification standard that underpins all of the European OEM specifications."
Ref:
School me in engine oil
If you read my posts, you'll find that's exactly what I've stated. M1 Vs cheapo FS don't tell you a single thing about what differentiates them on the bottle. Both bottles say what spec it meets, but that's about it. It says nothing about its make up. Only the price is double or more for M1...
bobistheoilguy.com
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D1G3
But then I don't have anything they specs higher HTHS or European length OCI.
But then I don't have anything they specs higher HTHS or European length OCI.
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This indeed. My Amg and Gti are safe with a 229.71.
WV 504/507
Porsche A40. If an oil can pass this test, then it can take anything I throw at it, no matter what gasoline engine it's in. I don't have any diesels, but if I did - it'd be Porsche C40.
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:
This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack, A full lap of the Nordschleife, bypassing the modern GP track, is 20.832 km (12.944 mi) long. A stock Chevrolet Corvette C5 has a lap record at Nurburgring @8:40, stock Honda S2000 has a record@8:39, and stock Honda NSX is @8:38. Considering these numbers, this Porsche A40 simulation is equal to 80-90 miles of flatout track use. Or 100-120 miles if you drive Porsche 911 GT2 R with its lap record @6:38.
- 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
One more thing for comparison. Just a rough idea of how the numbers stack up. Take everything with a grain of salt.
Most daily driven cars have an average speed (over the course of an OCI) of about ~35mph. That would make the 203hr test an equivalent to 7,105 miles of driving.
Assuming the average speeds are higher, let's say 50mph, and the 203hrs are now equivalent to 10,150 miles of driving.
Here is Porsche A40 testing procedure:
This test will last 203 hours. The engine, and the oil, will go through:
- 4 times the simulation of 35 hours of summer driving,
- 4 times the simulation of 13.5 hours of winter driving,
- 40 cold starts,
- 5 times the simulation of 1-hour sessions on the “Nürburgring” racetrack, A full lap of the Nordschleife, bypassing the modern GP track, is 20.832 km (12.944 mi) long. A stock Chevrolet Corvette C5 has a lap record at Nurburgring @8:40, stock Honda S2000 has a record@8:39, and stock Honda NSX is @8:38. Considering these numbers, this Porsche A40 simulation is equal to 80-90 miles of flatout track use. Or 100-120 miles if you drive Porsche 911 GT2 R with its lap record @6:38.
- 3.5 hours of “running-in” program
Measurements on the engine and on the oil will be done at regular intervals, and the following parameter
will be taken into account to grant the approval or not:
- torque curve (internal friction),
- oxidation of the oil,
- Piston cleanliness and ring sticking,
- Valve train wear protection. Cam & tappet wear must be less than 10 μm.
- Engine cleanliness and sludge: after 203 hours, no deposits must be visible.
- Bearing wear protection: visual rating according to Porsche in-house method.
One more thing for comparison. Just a rough idea of how the numbers stack up. Take everything with a grain of salt.
Most daily driven cars have an average speed (over the course of an OCI) of about ~35mph. That would make the 203hr test an equivalent to 7,105 miles of driving.
Assuming the average speeds are higher, let's say 50mph, and the 203hrs are now equivalent to 10,150 miles of driving.
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Nothing wrong with API SP, it's a good standard and a nice step forward over SN.
How does that differ from MB 229.5 (A3/B4 high-SAPS) or MB 229.51 (C3 mid-SAPS)?
Is it the mid-SAPS with a LSPI test added?
I sort of use the DEXOS spec as a guide in determining if an oil is decent. Granted there are some oils that meet the DEXOS spec but don't pay to have that on the bottle so my method isn't fool proof. Back in the day I chose oils that met the GM4871 which was a tough spec back then meaning the oil was usually a stout synthetic.
C3
I'm seeing Euro oils as the benchmark?
229.52 has higher demands on fuel economy than 229.51, specifically reduced cold start drag, to get at least 0,7% better fuel economy, with the same minimum HTHS requirement (3,5 cP). It has additional LSPI test as you mentioned. It is also more resistant to oxidation, to be suited to biofuel use. 229.5 has higher max phosphorous, same minimum HTHS, lower oxidation requirement against biofuel, and much lower level of protection of catalysts and DPF/GPF. 229.5 also has not so high fuel economy requirements as 229.52. All three are long-life oils. So it seems that 229.52 (2019) is a bit evolved from 229.51, and which can better suit both petrol and diesel engines, even todays newest standards with T-GDI, DEF, SCR, TWC, DPF/GPF, with a good HTHS for demanding situations. That makes it the one approval which can best suit all the engines I change oil on. It may be additional differences than what I know of.
Acura Honda HTO-6
Whatever approvals it says on the back of ESP 0W30 or 5W30. 
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