Oil recommendation retro fit hydraulic roller 400 SBC 500+hp

[DuckRyder]

RE the Roller Cam 400.

With the roller cam i really don't think you need anything really special, the biggest concerns will be how aggressive the valve springs are and clearances. I mean shoot 0w-5 should be fine (<That's a joke, don't do that)

I really feel like any of the usual go to recommendations will work fine, 0/40, 5/30, T6, Delvac, Delo.

 

[OVERKILL]

LOL, Yup, i have never actually seen a Ski Ray. Back then the Supra (and Moomba) Dealer for GA operated out of his garage at least that's the idea I got. There was also Tige' and "American Skier" I believe - i'm sure ive missed a few. This would probably have been the late 90's I think Fords were almost the default marine engine until this deal with PCM which coincided with the end of windsors and advent of the Mod Motor. At least that is how i remember it.

Oh man, yeah, you are bringing back the memories! LOL! Tigé was certainly another popular boat, trying to remember all the ones we saw on the lake. Century also made a Ski boat, IIRC.

The Super Scorpion if no one has figured it out was a 377 Cube SBC that made 377HP - I believe they claimed it was built in the Mercury Racing Shop.

I'll have to see if i can dig up a picture of the old Masters Edition.

Would be cool to see for sure

I also think that almost all of the PCMs were 5.8/351, it may be that the 240 horse was a 302 or a detuned 5.8 used in the Ski Tiqe" (SP) which was a 17 footer. I'm kinda fuzzy on the Carbed versions though i'm pretty solid on the 290, but there was zero chance is was getting anything other than a GT40 in a Nautique.

There was a 302, but it may not have ended up in the ski boats, at least not the Supra ones. They also did a Ford 460! Along with the obvious Chev engines (GT40 not in this list). Not sure what year this list is from unfortunately, it doesn't say in the manual I snapped it from:

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Id say this is pretty close to what you should get.

I'm curious to see if you can stabilize your dyno runs at 3K or if you will have start at 3500

Grinding in advance is convenient. I run the same 236/242 and 110 LSA, but less lift .510.

Both engines should be lots of fun. It’s been several years since it got put together, but my last GM V8 build was my brother’s 404 cube LS2/LS3 hybrid. Put CNC ported LS3 heads, a FAST LSXR 102, and a 242/[email protected]” hyd roller 113+0 .621/.629” Erson custom in it, along with full-length headers into a custom single 4” exhaust. My brother also put a Turbo 400 with a trans brake & 3400 stall in it. Full factory interior with a full 10 point rollcage in a 2002 Camaro SS, cam was intended for a 250 shot on a fogger, but I ran a foot-braked 10.07[email protected] on motor shifting at 7100 and since he didn’t have a chute (and I didn’t have a competition license), the track told me I was done.

That’s back when we were a hair crazy- looking back, since he puts about 1500-2000 street miles on it a year, I would have probably chopped the cam down to a 234/246 on a 110+4 to give it a much stronger natural midrange and much softer idle manners (relatively speaking, of course! 🤣). Just like kschachn’s advice, my brother has run the Castro 0w40 since we put it together, and changes it yearly.

Best of luck with the car!👍🏻

 

[userfriendly]

Both engines should be lots of fun. It’s been several years since it got put together, but my last GM V8 build was my brother’s 404 cube LS2/LS3 hybrid. Put CNC ported LS3 heads, a FAST LSXR 102, and a 242/[email protected]” hyd roller 113+0 .621/.629” Erson custom in it, along with full-length headers into a custom single 4” exhaust. My brother also put a Turbo 400 with a trans brake & 3400 stall in it. Full factory interior with a full 10 point rollcage in a 2002 Camaro SS, cam was intended for a 250 shot on a fogger, but I ran a foot-braked [email protected] on motor shifting at 7100 and since he didn’t have a chute (and I didn’t have a competition license), the track told me I was done.

That’s back when we were a hair crazy- looking back, since he puts about 1500-2000 street miles on it a year, I would have probably chopped the cam down to a 234/246 on a 110+4 to give it a much stronger natural midrange and much softer idle manners (relatively speaking, of course! 🤣). Just like kschachn’s advice, my brother has run the Castro 0w40 since we put it together, and changes it yearly.

Best of luck with the car!👍🏻

The intent of the Erson cam was to cut low end torque somewhat 113= int; 8/54 exh 60/14 @ .050
Add 250 HP at 5252 rpm = another 250 lbs of torque and an additional 386 lbs at 3,400 stall.
As is, the car ran a foot braked 10.07/132. Not bad for a cam that's all wrong.
Not going for the NOS and want better street maners and idle quality? Just advance the cam 5 crank degrees, no more or you'll
throw the baby out with the bath water.
Your dream cam, 234/246 110+4 has 20 degrees of overlap compared to 22 degrees for the 113 LSA one. Not enough to improve idle imo.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

The intent of the Erson cam was to cut low end torque somewhat 113= int; 8/54 exh 60/14 @ .050
Add 250 HP at 5252 rpm = another 250 lbs of torque and an additional 386 lbs at 3,400 stall.
As is, the car ran a foot braked 10.07/132. Not bad for a cam that's all wrong.
Not going for the NOS and want better street maners and idle quality? Just advance the cam 5 crank degrees, no more or you'll
throw the baby out with the bath water.
Your dream cam, 234/246 110+4 has 20 degrees of overlap compared to 22 degrees for the 113 LSA one. Not enough to improve idle imo.

Not a bad analysis from an internet post. Some minor details are of but not enough to niggle. 👍🏻

You did miss the sarcasm on the idle improvement though; the main goal would be to shift torque back down lower, since using a 250 shot on the street these days is just too risky (all those women drivers, you know 🤣). Plus, chopping 1000 rpm off an engine’s operating window never did anything bad for longevity… 😉

 

[FCD]

If it likes a 50 grade oil , i'd run M1 15W-50 in that and fuggedaboudit.
Or if a 50 is too much then why not Rotella T6 15W-40.

 

[DuckRyder]

Oh and Centurion Ski Boats

Ok last hijack i promise. I recalled basically in the middle of the night that the "Apex" was PCMs SBC entry not Indmars Pretty sure Indmar called theirs LT1s at least for master craft.. When the Windsors started drying up PCM had to use GM so...

I also it seems they are still in Business:

PCM Engines – The Leader in Inboard Marine Propulsion

pcmengines.com

And i found this from the end of the Ford era. Direct PDF Link

https://www.correctcraftfan.com/downloads/PCM_GT-40_Owners_Manual_1995-2001.pdf

 

[RDY4WAR]

I skimmed through the thread and didn't see it noted.

Do you remember (roughly) what the rod and main bearing clearance was when it was assembled? That will tell you the oil grade.

Since you stated it can see cold starts of 25°F, I would want a 5W-xx winter rating to help with flow and take some drag off the starter. Depending on the bearing clearance, an A3/B4 5W-40 or A40 0W-40 could be an ideal choice. I can't imagine the strain that starter had on it trying to spin the engine over in 25°F weather with a 20W-50 conventional oil.

What was your oil pressure at hot idle with the 20W-50?

 

[userfriendly]

Not a bad analysis from an internet post. Some minor details are of but not enough to niggle. 👍🏻

You did miss the sarcasm on the idle improvement though; the main goal would be to shift torque back down lower, since using a 250 shot on the street these days is just too risky (all those women drivers, you know 🤣). Plus, chopping 1000 rpm off an engine’s operating window never did anything bad for longevity… 😉

Just curious, did you buy the cam when Erson was still in Carson City, NV?

 

[DavidJones]

I have a 455 in a 1969 GTO with a small solid roller cam and use the Crower hippo solid roller lifters. I've had the car 20+ years and I set the 455 up like it currently is about 10-12 years ago, so the setup has somewhere around 25,000 miles or so on it. I've always used some sort of 10w40 and try to change it once a year. I've never really been locked on a brand and it's had conventional, semi-synthetic and full synthetic in it, currently Castrol semi-syn....IIRC. 3.73 rear. TKO600. 4 wheel disc brakes and hydroboost.

 

[SubieRubyRoo]

Just curious, did you buy the cam when Erson was still in Carson City, NV?

Yes, and spec’d it when Steve Tanzi was still HMIC… probably 2005-2007 timeframe? These are Hans Hermann-designed profiles, not sure who he is but I know Steve was very hot on their capabilities.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

I have a 455 in a 1969 GTO with a small solid roller cam and use the Crower ...

Good looking Poncho !

 

[frankbee3]

Amusingly, there are a couple of us here with SBF's in our boats. We also have a Windsor in ours (351W), but it's the fuel injected GT40 Pro Boss version, so it has the GT40 tubular intake and GT40 heads with a marine cam.

Overkill, I'll bet your boat runs really well? While I am happy with my boat and it's performance, I think it would be nice to have an oxygen sensor on it so I can really dial in the A/F ratio. Sometimes I think it would be neat to repower my boat with the engine that you have for EEC.

If I recall, your boat is set up to run in open loop in normal circumstances?

My next project is trying to get the boat a bit quieter. I have a 3 inch exhaust system with the long twin fiberglass mufflers. I would like to get the bark down a bit..

Thanks for the link to the mufflers/silencers!

 

[OVERKILL]

Overkill, I'll bet your boat runs really well? While I am happy with my boat and it's performance, I think it would be nice to have an oxygen sensor on it so I can really dial in the A/F ratio. Sometimes I think it would be neat to repower my boat with the engine that you have for EEC.

If I recall, your boat is set up to run in open loop in normal circumstances?

My next project is trying to get the boat a bit quieter. I have a 3 inch exhaust system with the long twin fiberglass mufflers. I would like to get the bark down a bit..

Thanks for the link to the mufflers/silencers!

Yes, EEC-IV is fantastic. As you note, it's in open loop (base table) all the time, because it doesn't have any HEGO's. ECM is mounted to the back of the engine as you can see in the picture, it really only needs power to run, it's very much a turn-key package if you were to find one, you could just drop it in.

We had the fibreglass mufflers of course and they were rotted out, hence the replacement with the stainless units. I'll note that they aren't super quiet, the boat sounds like quite the hot rod one the lake.

 

[frankbee3]

LOL, Yup, i have never actually seen a Ski Ray. Back then the Supra (and Moomba) Dealer for GA operated out of his garage at least that's the idea I got. There was also Tige' and "American Skier" I believe - i'm sure ive missed a few. This would probably have been the late 90's I think Fords were almost the default marine engine until this deal with PCM which coincided with the end of windsors and advent of the Mod Motor. At least that is how i remember it.

The Super Scorpion if no one has figured it out was a 377 Cube SBC that made 377HP - I believe they claimed it was built in the Mercury Racing Shop.

I'll have to see if i can dig up a picture of the old Masters Edition.

I also think that almost all of the PCMs were 5.8/351, it may be that the 240 horse was a 302 or a detuned 5.8 used in the Ski Tiqe" (SP) which was a 17 footer. I'm kinda fuzzy on the Carbed versions though i'm pretty solid on the 290, but there was zero chance is was getting anything other than a GT40 in a Nautique.

DuckRyder, my 1984 Ski Nautique came with a 351W PCM engine. It was rated at 240 horsepower. Even though the Correct Craft brochures never mentioned it, apparently for 1984 some Ski Nautiques came with a small block Chevy rated between 280-290 horsepower. To me, this information is sketchy because I never saw any information about this from anyone other than a guy trying to sell his 1984 Ski Nautique.

 

[RickSBC400]

Both engines should be lots of fun. It’s been several years since it got put together, but my last GM V8 build was my brother’s 404 cube LS2/LS3 hybrid. Put CNC ported LS3 heads, a FAST LSXR 102, and a 242/[email protected]” hyd roller 113+0 .621/.629” Erson custom in it, along with full-length headers into a custom single 4” exhaust. My brother also put a Turbo 400 with a trans brake & 3400 stall in it. Full factory interior with a full 10 point rollcage in a 2002 Camaro SS, cam was intended for a 250 shot on a fogger, but I ran a foot-braked [email protected] on motor shifting at 7100 and since he didn’t have a chute (and I didn’t have a competition license), the track told me I was done.

That’s back when we were a hair crazy- looking back, since he puts about 1500-2000 street miles on it a year, I would have probably chopped the cam down to a 234/246 on a 110+4 to give it a much stronger natural midrange and much softer idle manners (relatively speaking, of course! 🤣). Just like kschachn’s advice, my brother has run the Castro 0w40 since we put it together, and changes it yearly.

Best of luck with the car!👍🏻

that sounds like a really cool engine and a whole lotta power.

 

[RickSBC400]

I have a 455 in a 1969 GTO with a small solid roller cam and use the Crower hippo solid roller lifters. I've had the car 20+ years and I set the 455 up like it currently is about 10-12 years ago, so the setup has somewhere around 25,000 miles or so on it. I've always used some sort of 10w40 and try to change it once a year. I've never really been locked on a brand and it's had conventional, semi-synthetic and full synthetic in it, currently Castrol semi-syn....IIRC. 3.73 rear. TKO600. 4 wheel disc brakes and hydroboost.

thank you for the insight and feedback. what oil filter you fancy?

 

[OVERKILL]

DuckRyder, my 1984 Ski Nautique came with a 351W PCM engine. It was rated at 240 horsepower. Even though the Correct Craft brochures never mentioned it, apparently for 1984 some Ski Nautiques came with a small block Chevy rated between 280-290 horsepower. To me, this information is sketchy because I never saw any information about this from anyone other than a guy trying to sell his 1984 Ski Nautique.

There were definitely SBC's used in many of the ski boats (and pretty sure PCM was the vendor, as noted with the list of engines from earlier). I knew of two Supra's that are older than ours that both had SBC's in them instead of SBF's. Both were carb'd.

 

[OVERKILL]

thank you for the insight and feedback. what oil filter you fancy?

I know you aren't asking me, but if Fleetguard has a Stratapore for your application, I'd recommend that route. What's the GM filter #?

 

[UncleDave]

Pleasure Craft Marine - they made V-drives too.

Popular in Competion Ski Boats and Wake Board Boats. Nautiques used them well after everyone else went indmar/Chevy. IIRC PCM secured an exclusive deal with Ford for marine windsors, If i recall correctly you could get a 240 (Could have been 260) horse carbed, a 290 Horse Carbed (which was a GT40 less FI) and the GT40. The GT40 was 310 or 320, I seem to recall they finagled the numbers when Indmar released the "Apex" which was basically a RamJet Crate Motor (remember those. ) Pleasure Craft was affiliated/a division of someone else SeaMax(x) maybe. They were like a bright Turquoise (the affiliated company,) but 95% sure it was not Crusader.

Not sure who's in that market now, but back when i was into it Mercury had the Scorpion and Super Scorpion 377. I almost bough a Malibu because you could get a Super Scorpion (it was like an 8000.00 option). IIRC a Malibu or Sanger with a super scorpion would do 55ish MPH which was cooking - that was "Barefoot" boat territory. For a while Natique had a bare foot Nautique with a BBC and Master Craft has a Prostar 190 Barefoot that was a 200HP out board. Was very difficult to get a Sanger on the east coast at that time or i would have probably gotten a Sanger.

I put 1.7 roller rockers a 90mm TB and a real GT40 intake upper on mine (mine came with what we would call a "Cobra" upper) and had it to 49.5 on GPS a gain of about 2 or a little more MPH over stock, props were harder to get because PCM was a reduction gear and spun the prop backwards from an Indmar unless the indmar was a "Pro Slot" and most were not. IRRC max sustained cruise RPM was rated at 4800 on the GT40...

Oh Crud - i'm off topic, apologies.

Last oil change i took Overkills advice and put M1 0/40 in the Roller 445, but it hasn't moved in close to a year, it was fine for the few miles i ran it

Thanks.

Despite boating all my life, and being a part owner in a boat manufacturing company for a decade - aside from the occasional cross used Mercury parts - I never knew much about ski boats as its never been a vertical I've been interested in.