Oil is Oil

[Al]

Even even if someone did give you this mythical UOA it would not prove what you’re asking for. You are still stuck on the mistaken notion that a UOA gives comparative oil quality. It does not. Testing oils for comparative quality is expensive, time-consuming and more complicated than an uncontrolled $30 spectrographic analysis. As has been discussed here many times in the past, you may as well use a taste test. It’s easier, cheaper and doesn’t require any special equipment.

But labor on under your beliefs if you wish.

I am a person and (Hands on Mechanical Engineer who lives in the real world with real world industrial equipment experience for 30+ years.. I see many thousands of UOA's and come up with the conclusion that all oils (regardless of price) of comparable API/ILSAC specs perform whereby one does not show demonstrable superiority over the other.

You insist on going down the road of "Testing oils for comparative quality is expensive, time-consuming and more complicated than an uncontrolled $30 spectrographic analysis. " Why? I am talking real world wear....you are talking analyzing virgin oils which is done by manufactures to measure their quality.

Again... You: Analyzing oil properties. Me: How does the oil perform in the real world where the rubber meets the road.

 

[OVERKILL]

That amount of sludge has me suspicious about what maintenance really occurred.

Also, short tripper, severe service conditions with TGMO 0W16 would call for 5k mile OCIs.

Joe Average isn't going to have two sweet clues what constitutes severe service or not, which is why Toyota should develop an IOLM like many of its peers already use.

 

[DirectRejection]

Joe Average isn't going to have two sweet clues what constitutes severe service or not, which is why Toyota should develop an IOLM like many of its peers already use.

This customers fix is to just replace the engine. LOL

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Actual wear is seen on end of service life equipment tear down and meaurement, not specific to a UOA.

Some of this is related to the engine design and materials, some of it is related to a successful break in, some of it is state of tune and the rest of it is operation and oil quality related (measuring oil deposit mass and gum/varnishing of critical components.

Yeah, sure. Maybe, lol !

 

[Kira]

Oil is 'lio' spelled backwards....if that helps.

 

[ARCOgraphite]

Oil is 'lio' spelled backwards....if that helps.

And the BITOG L.E.O. will be surveilling your LIO habits and may issue you a citation for statute 710 violation and cuff you if you are not good. And cuff spelled ba ... is ... a ... Oops! Nope.

 

[Gary_E]

I’m a new member, and recently found this great place. I have been enjoying reading about all of the diff “ingredients” and developments in oils.

A 20 yr member, who is an engineer, just ruined it for me . I’m going to stick around though.

 

[ZeeOSix]

I am a person and (Hands on Mechanical Engineer who lives in the real world with real world industrial equipment experience for 30+ years.. I see many thousands of UOA's and come up with the conclusion that all oils (regardless of price) of comparable API/ILSAC specs perform whereby one does not show demonstrable superiority over the other.

Did that group of many 1000s of UOA data categorize the UOAs into oil brand, oil viscosity, OCI lengths (or ppm/1000 miles), use conditions, total engine mileage, etc, to try to compare factors that could cause more wear metals to show up in a basic UOA? The only way anyone could be able to see any impact of different oils using a standard Inductive Coupled Plasma (ICP) spectrometer technique UOA (like a Blackstone UOA) would be for someone to conduct a controlled (as much as possible) test on the same vehicle over many thousands of miles over many same length OCIs using different oils while keeping historical records of UOA test results from two or more UOA test sources to cross-check lab test accuracy and repeatability. It would take a long time to collect that kind of UOA data and build a historical record.

The reason thousands of random ICP type Blackstone UOAs (without much control in the field) looks like what oil being used doesn't seem to matter is basically because of what was pointed out in post 120 (shown below for ref). If you look at that figure, you'll realize that an ICP spectrometer type test is like looking through a straw at the possible total wear metals in the oil sample. The ICP spectrometer test method only sees wear particles 5u and smaller, so if there is a small increase in wear particles in the 0.1-5u size range, the ICP test method is pretty insensitive to what could be going on with wear particles above 5u, and a small "blip" of increased wear metals could be hidden in the noise level of the measurements and a data collection from other random UOAs. That's especially true when just comparing some one-time UOA test results to a bunch of other one-time UOA test results from a bunch of random vehicles. You would have to do the more controlled UOA history tracking testing on the same vehicle used in the same conditions like I described earlier to have a better insight to what may or may not be causing higher wear rates.

 

[burbguy82]

I am leary that "titanium" vs Boron/Moly makes much if any difference.

I am in the understanding that base chemistry is more important than additives.

 

[kschachn]

I am in the understanding that base chemistry is more important than additives.

For things such as oxidation and sludge resistance or ring coking, but not for wear. PAO is actually somewhat higher in wear as a base.

 

[Hermann]

Oil is not oil.

A lot of it is natural gas. And PAO and on and on

 

[kschachn]

Did that group of many 1000s of UOA data categorize the UOAs into oil brand, oil viscosity, OCI lengths (or ppm/1000 miles), use conditions, total engine mileage, etc, to try to compare factors that could cause more wear metals to show up in a basic UOA? The only way anyone could be able to see any impact of different oils using a standard Inductive Coupled Plasma (ICP) spectrometer technique UOA (like a Blackstone UOA) would be for someone to conduct a controlled (as much as possible) test on the same vehicle over many thousands of miles over many same length OCIs using different oils while keeping historical records of UOA test results from two or more UOA test sources to cross-check lab test accuracy and repeatability. It would take a long time to collect that kind of UOA data and build a historical record.

The reason thousands of random ICP type Blackstone UOAs (without much control in the field) looks like what oil being used doesn't seem to matter is basically because of what was pointed out in post 120 (shown below for ref). If you look at that figure, you'll realize that an ICP spectrometer type test is like looking through a straw at the possible total wear metals in the oil sample. The ICP spectrometer test method only sees wear particles 5u and smaller, so if there is a small increase in wear particles in the 0.1-5u size range, the ICP test method is pretty insensitive to what could be going on with wear particles above 5u, and a small "blip" of increased wear metals could be hidden in the noise level of the measurements and a data collection from other random UOAs. That's especially true when just comparing some one-time UOA test results to a bunch of other one-time UOA test results from a bunch of random vehicles. You would have to do the more controlled UOA history tracking testing on the same vehicle used in the same conditions like I described earlier to have a better insight to what may or may not be causing higher wear rates.

View attachment 213109

Yes. These guys that boast about their “real world” experience are unfortunately the ones that are most often the furthest from it. What with the host of uncontrolled variables and inevitable biases their deeply held conclusions are generally misguided.

They don’t like to hear that, but it’s the truth.

 

[burbguy82]

Yes. These guys that boast about their “real world” experience are unfortunately the ones that are most often the furthest from it. What with the host of uncontrolled variables and inevitable biases their deeply held conclusions are generally misguided.

They don’t like to hear that, but it’s the truth.

what do you run in your JDM vintage sienna and accord? genuinely interested

 

[We're Metals]

A lot of it is natural gas. And PAO and on and on

Oil is Oil and other stuff

Haha

 

[userfriendly]

Oil is Oil and other stuff

Haha

Yep, and the primary function of engine oil is to make money for the blender and downstream marketing.
Manufacture the product as cheaply as possible and sell it for as much money as possible through hype and advertising.
Lie if you have to.

 

[Al]

Yes. These guys that boast about their “real world” experience are unfortunately the ones that are most often the furthest from it. What with the host of uncontrolled variables and inevitable biases their deeply held conclusions are generally misguided.

They don’t like to hear that, but it’s the truth.

I know you enjoy running down my experiences as a Maintenance supervisor, and formal training as well as informal training from Exxon reps when I made decisions on which oil went in every piece of equipment in a new power plant. And I am surprised you can't compare UOA results with similar mileage the same API specs and different brands and grades. Of course there will be anomalies but statistics are predictable where thousands of comparisons can be examined.

So you view my conclusions as BS and I view your inability to see the validity of my hypothesis as curious. I'll end it. I'm done

 

[fdcg27]

The problem is always in identifying a superior oil, which probably depends upon application.
I've long thought that lower NOACK and bettter cold numbers are indicative of a better basestock blend, but maybe not.
If we have a couple of cars with PI NA engines that make around 71 bhp/liter and are rarely run hard, are there any really bad 0W-20s or any that stand out as being worth using over all others?
I remain doubtful of the later and skeptical of the former.

 

[ZeeOSix]

And I am surprised you can't compare UOA results with similar mileage the same API specs and different brands and grades. Of course there will be anomalies but statistics are predictable where thousands of comparisons can be examined.

Who has actually done that where we can all look at the data and the summary concussions of that data? Has anyone here actually done a long term UOA tracking history on one vehicle in a controlled manner as much as possible to look for any UOA wear metal ppm/1000 mile trends like discussed in post 168? It would take many 1000s of miles and a long time to see such trends and the effect of different oil viscosity and brands. It's going to take much more test control and effort than just comparing one UOA on Oil A to another UOA on Oil B, even on the same vehicle. It would have to be at least 5 UOAs on one oil compared to 5 UOAs on a different oil to see if there is a change in the wear metals trends. If the OCIs are 5000-7500 miles on Oil A then same on Oil B, then it would take a total of 50,000-75,000 miles and 10 UOAs (20 if sending each one to two different labs for cross-checks) total on the vehicle to see the wear metal trends. Not a short term test. And that would only be the testing to see if Oil A vs Oil B shows any difference. If you wanted to compare more oils, then the test would be going on for much longer.

 

[Big_B]

Saying oil is oil is like saying Steven Seagal is as tough as Chuck Norris. Come on now.

 

[Bryanccfshr]

People form biases for multiple reasons. I am not a psychologist. I do know that oil service interval should match the service and conditions.

Most people don’t know or consider this. For exampleI I drive 92 miles a day round trip to work. I will accumulate 10k miles in less than 6 months with very few trips that don’t result in a very warmed up engine even with a hybrid. I am not at all stressed about 10k intervals with oe oil.

I do agree with Overkill, Toyota can spend a few bucks on a service based oil monitor. Bitog people( a self selecting group of interested people) tend to bias being and their actual service is less severe than they think and non BITOG people just don’t have a clue about their personal operating conditions. So of course there will be vehicles that are abused in “our” eyes. But calibrate to the public, realize we are not near those lines and have some more confidence in your own knowledge.