Oil is Oil

[kschachn]

Many statements seem to be true, but are actually false. Simply because the scope of understanding is too narrow. Like BS saying there’s no difference in their data that is significant enough to deem one oil better than another.

But this gets quoted often, without adequately scrutinizing its origin or its nature and precepts to see if it’s indeed true, and if true, where and when.

Blackstone is correct. Given that they only perform a limited set of tests based on spectrographic analysis there is no difference. The problem isn’t Blackstone, the issue is that UOA don’t measure relative oil quality.

It’s also where posters to Bitog sometimes go afoul.

 

[TheRuley]

And if you restrict that claim further to "will get you through the warranty period and beyond without issue", with obvious exceptions like the Toyota sludgers and the Honda VCM engines, that's reasonably accurate.

McDonalds burgers are the most popular. They are a means to obtain protein and they are approved by the FDA. The same could be a said for a "Hungry Man" dinner. You buy a box of "Cowboy" burgers from the grocery store, same thing. They meet the standards required for burgers, they are "good enough".

I cooked prime rib burgers last night. I bought myself some fresh patties from the local butcher, the others are what my wife picked up for the kids from Costco. These are not the same in texture, taste or satisfaction, despite meeting the same standards and both satisfying the same requirements for being meat protein; for being sustenance. Now, will either of these make me live longer? Unlikely.
View attachment 212841

Now, compare a proper balanced meal made with fresh greens and butcher meat to something like a Hungry Man. Again, both meet the requirements, but there are grounds there to reasonably conclude that the proper meal, using better components and made to a higher standard, if consumed regularly, will have a positive impact on life expectancy when compared to somebody that just eats the Hungry Man dinners.

People like cheap. People like Walmart and places where they feel they are getting a "deal". This may apply to everything or only things they don't have a specific appreciation for. We see that all the time on this site and the premise of this thread is that thought process manifest. We could extend it to "tires are tires" and "gas is gas" and many do, that's why Ling-Long and Fate-e-O Chinese tires are popular. They are round and black and DOT approved. They LOOK like you want them to look like, and they are cheap. They are the Hungry Man or Raman noodles of tires.

Guns are guns too right? Why buy a precision rifle and high priced ammo when you can get the same job done with an SKS and some Chinese surplus?

I can't really argue any of that.
My question is with all of that being said, will that realistically amount to any bit of difference in terms of engine longevity?

If i buy a brand new car that requires dexos1 0w20 and from day one I religiously do 5,000 mile oil changes using dexos1 0w20, will using top shelf amsoil make the engine last any longer than if I used supertec? If so are we talking the difference between the engine going 600,000 miles vs 250,000 miles?

 

[OVERKILL]

I can't really argue any of that.
My question is with all of that being said, will that realistically amount to any bit of difference in terms of engine longevity?

If i buy a brand new car that requires dexos1 0w20 and from day one I religiously do 5,000 mile oil changes using dexos1 0w20, will using top shelf amsoil make the engine last any longer than if I used supertec? If so are we talking the difference between the engine going 600,000 miles vs 250,000 miles?

While I don't put much stock in most of the Youtube commentary, recent tear-downs of Toyota engines apparently using spec oil at OE intervals with stuck rings and scored walls does point to either the OE interval being too long or the lubricant simply not being up to the task of dealing with that particular engine design under those conditions.

@Trav's experience with the Honda 3.5L VCM engines is similar with huge levels of varnish and deposits using a spec lube at the OE interval while M1 0W-40 keeps them clean (an oil designed for extended drains and having to meet Euro OE requirements for that operation profile).

The counter to that is if you are experiencing ring sticking and consumption at 200,000 miles, is Joe Average going to consider what it was maintained with as an influencing factor on that result or is it just going to be chalked-up to typical wear and tear over the anticipated lifespan of the vehicle? The latter is what the OEM is generally shooting for, their parameters are not factory clean with no wear at 200,000 miles, it's reasonably clean with reasonable levels of wear over the anticipated lifespan of the equipment which commodity oil blenders will then work to meet the requirements of for the lowest cost possible.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Think some of those stuck ring cases were also connected to the piston oil control rings lack of holes in the ring groove. That's why the fix from Toyota was new pistons/rings with properly designed oil control ring groove and holes. The old piston design was probably more sensitive to longer OCIs and/or sub-par oils being used and the oil control rings would "coke up" and get stuck. A badly designed and/or improperly working PCV system can also increase the rate of deposits because the guts of the engine isn't "swept clean" of harmful vapors and moisture like a good working PCV system would do. Yep, lots of factors involved in how clean the inside of an engine stays over it's lifetime.

 

[Glenda W.]

IMO when comparing majority group 3 synthetic oils with the same approvals your splitting hairs. You’ll most likely never find a difference.

 

[OVERKILL]

Think some of those stuck ring cases were also connected to the piston oil control rings lack of holes in the ring groove. That's why the fix from Toyota was new pistons/rings with properly designed oil control ring groove and holes. The old piston design was probably more sensitive to longer OCIs and/or sub-par oils being used and the oil control rings would "coke up" and get stuck. A badly designed and/or improperly working PCV system can also increase the rate of deposits because the guts of the engine isn't "swept clean" of harmful vapors and moisture like a good working PCV system would do. Yep, lots of factors involved in how clean the inside of an engine stays over it's lifetime.

That was definitely the case with the sludger-era engines, just like with the Saturn engines, but not sure that's the case with the current crop of 0W-16 engines experiencing the issue? I know some people were blaming low tension rings, but that's just an easy scapegoat, as we've had those for decades without this problem.

 

[Slick3914]

IMO when comparing majority group 3 synthetic oils with the same approvals your splitting hairs. You’ll most likely never find a difference.

This entire site is based on splitting hairs, LOL

 

[burbguy82]

Why buy a precision rifle and high priced ammo when you can get the same job done with an SKS and some Chinese surplus?

While I agree with the direction of your post...
...That is different. With a precision rifle, you can immediately see and calculate the difference in performance. The SKS cannot achieve the same level of performance of a GA Precision m40, for example

If so are we talking the difference between the engine going 600,000 miles vs 250,000 miles?

Great point. Some would think that to be the case, but I do not see it. Nor do I see the rest of the vehicle lasting for that long of a time, assuming normal driving per year

I know some people were blaming low tension rings, but that's just an easy scapegoat, as we've had those for decades without this problem.

Yes, but couple that with the physics or direct injection, and you have an issue.

 

[OVERKILL]

While I agree with the direction of your post...
...That is different. With a precision rifle, you can immediately see and calculate the difference in performance.

The same can be done for oil if you want to pay for the testing (which AMSOIL does for example). I've had this conversation with a guy with a $300 rifle and a $150 scope, his argument is that if he can hit the deer, what's the point in spending more? Many parallels to the kirkland/supertech/quick lube mindset there. I've had similar convos about tires too.

The SKS cannot achieve the same level of performance of a GA Precision m40, for example

You don't even have to go that far, yet the SKS is the most popular rifle used for game harvesting by indigenous people in Canada. Just because you can prove it's "less than" another doesn't mean people care. Mobil publishes their specs on resistance to oxidative thickening for example, do you think if they published resistance to deposit formation that it would sway the opinion and decision making process of the guy buying Supertech? I don't.

Yes, but couple that with the physics or direct injection, and you have an issue.

Yet BMW has done it successfully IMHO, we give far too much latitude to marques screwing things up because of their past reputation.

 

[TheRuley]

While I don't put much stock in most of the Youtube commentary, recent tear-downs of Toyota engines apparently using spec oil at OE intervals with stuck rings and scored walls does point to either the OE interval being too long or the lubricant simply not being up to the task of dealing with that particular engine design under those conditions.

@Trav's experience with the Honda 3.5L VCM engines is similar with huge levels of varnish and deposits using a spec lube at the OE interval while M1 0W-40 keeps them clean (an oil designed for extended drains and having to meet Euro OE requirements for that operation profile).

The counter to that is if you are experiencing ring sticking and consumption at 200,000 miles, is Joe Average going to consider what it was maintained with as an influencing factor on that result or is it just going to be chalked-up to typical wear and tear over the anticipated lifespan of the vehicle? The latter is what the OEM is generally shooting for, their parameters are not factory clean with no wear at 200,000 miles, it's reasonably clean with reasonable levels of wear over the anticipated lifespan of the equipment which commodity oil blenders will then work to meet the requirements of for the lowest cost possible.

I think i have seen if not the same video, a similar video.
Now would that engine damage have been a consequence of using an inferior oil, or going too long on the oil change intervals? Maybe both?

If you are going to go 10,000+ miles on an oil change, then you better have done your homework on the oil and filter you are using, driving conditions, climate, etc.

My mom bought herself a new chevy trax a while ago and at best she might do 4,000 miles a year on it, but it is almost exclusively short trips around town, which is considered "severe" driving conditions, meaning the factory recommended OCI is not appropriate for her.

so would she be best to use something from HPL @3-4x the cost of a basic oil change and keep the factory OCI, or keep using the basic OE approved oil and filter and just change it a little more often? Because that seems to be the two different schools of thought at the moment.

 

[burbguy82]

SKS is the most popular rifle used for game harvesting by indigenous people in Canada

Wow, did not know that. It is a formidable rifle no doubt.
Sucks for yall canucks and the gun laws.

if he can hit the deer, what's the point in spending more

I agree, for its intended use. I think that perhaps the point you were making is:

Why spend more?=because it does the job, and then some? If I am understanding correctly.

Years ago, I drove this vehicle....it was black and 2wd, like a dune buggy. Driving normally, and going to my destination I drove nicely, did not take chances, for two reasons, 1.) To increase the likely hood that I would get where I was going, and 2.) So that when I was leaving, I could have as much "vehicle" left as possible.

In other words, I like having capability and options.

Is that where you were going kind of?

 

[OVERKILL]

I think i have seen if not the same video, a similar video.
Now would that engine damage have been a consequence of using an inferior oil, or going too long on the oil change intervals? Maybe both?

If you are going to go 10,000+ miles on an oil change, then you better have done your homework on the oil and filter you are using, driving conditions, climate, etc.

My understanding is that they were using the OE oil (TGMO 0W-16 I think?) at the OE interval, which Toyota sets at 10,000 miles regardless of how it's driven because apparently IOLM's are too high tech for the toaster maker

My mom bought herself a new chevy trax a while ago and at best she might do 4,000 miles a year on it, but it is almost exclusively short trips around town, which is considered "severe" driving conditions, meaning the factory recommended OCI is not appropriate for her.

If it has an IOLM, then that should be accounted for in the calculated interval. If it has a dumb mileage counter, then yeah, your observation is 100% correct.

so would she be best to use something from HPL @3-4x the cost of a basic oil change and keep the factory OCI, or keep using the basic OE approved oil and filter and just change it a little more often? Because that seems to be the two different schools of thought at the moment.

Would depend on how the basic OE approved oil handles the shorter interval. Some applications are just unusually demanding.

 

[OVERKILL]

Wow, did not know that. It is a formidable rifle no doubt.

Well, it was also SUPER cheap. You could pick them up for ages for $99 at Canadian Tire still coated in Cosmoline. Later, they went up to $150 and then $250.

Sucks for yall canucks and the gun laws.

Tell me about it!

I agree, for its intended use. I think that perhaps the point you were making is:

Why spend more?=because it does the job, and then some? If I am understanding correctly.

Exactly, that's the thought process employed.

Years ago, I drove this vehicle....it was black and 2wd, like a dune buggy. Driving normally, and going to my destination I drove nicely, did not take chances, for two reasons, 1.) To increase the likely hood that I would get where I was going, and 2.) So that when I was leaving, I could have as much "vehicle" left as possible.

In other words, I like having capability and options.

Is that where you were going kind of?

Yes, basically.

I don't own an SKS, while they may be cheap and entertaining to shoot, their crudeness doesn't appeal to me. I appreciate quality tools and their greater capabilities. The counter of course from the Harbour Freight folks is why buy Snap-On when you can buy a whole Chinese "Pittsburg" tool set for the same price? It'll "do the job" right?

Related anecdote:
When I was a kid we had a golf cart retrofitted with a snowmobile engine on the island our cottage was on. My grandfather bought us Mastercraft (Canadian Tire) tools to use so that we didn't use his good Snap-On stuff. Well, the wheel bearing seized on the "Flying Fart" (that was plastered across its rear gate) and so I endeavoured to remove it with the 3/8ths ratchet, which I silly puttied. Upgraded to the 1/2" drive one with a pipe on it and then silly puttied that one too. Off to the basement I went and grabbed the Snap-On 3/8ths drive (couldn't find a 1/2" drive) and put the pipe on it, and I was jumping on the pipe and eventually the nut came free and I was able to fix the wheel bearing.

That was my lesson in quality tools 30 years ago and it left an impression. I still have my grandfather's Snap-On tools and they still get used like they were intended.

 

[ZeeOSix]

That was definitely the case with the sludger-era engines, just like with the Saturn engines, but not sure that's the case with the current crop of 0W-16 engines experiencing the issue? I know some people were blaming low tension rings, but that's just an easy scapegoat, as we've had those for decades without this problem.

Have newer Toyotas running 0W-16 with normal OCIs experiencing stuck rings and excessive oil burning now too? If so, probably caused by something more than just the oil used. Haven't been paying much attention to those engines lately. Pretty much any engine with abused maintenance can sludge up the oil can create all kinds of havoc, like this extreme example.

 

[OVERKILL]

Have newer Toyotas running 0W-16 with normal OCIs experiencing stuck rings and excessive oil burning now too? If so, probably caused by something more than just the oil used.

IIRC, it was 0W-16 and the factory 10,000 mile Toyota OCI. The video was a rail against the 10,000 mile OCI. It was posted on here a while back.

 

[KEVINK0000]

Blackstone is correct. Given that they only perform a limited set of tests based on spectrographic analysis there is no difference. The problem isn’t Blackstone, the issue is that UOA don’t measure relative oil quality.

It’s also where posters to Bitog sometimes go afoul.

But there is a difference, that can be perceived and shown even in their own data. To say what they say (and what you say) is accurate based on raw numbers, and a huge uncorrected sample, but raw numbers are not enough to be true. Therefore to make unqualified statements, like BS has done is inaccurate, and definitely misleading.

 

[Al]

And those special formulations have MUCH LOWER levels of Molybdenum than average for the same grade, and MUCH HIGHER levels of Titanium. So obviously their engineers see some important advantages in those ingredients being formulated to the PPM levels that they are.

I'm not going to run the cheapest 0W-20 oil that Wally World has on sale this week in my Jag.

Except if Wallyworld had the proper API/ILSAC it would be fine. I am leary that "titanium" vs Boron/Moly makes much if any difference.
We have seen time after time after time that WallyOil is the equal of any oil in UOA's. Until you provide me with a UOA of these super oils or head to head comparisons...lable me skeptical.

 

[kschachn]

Except if Wallyworld had the proper API/ILSAC it would be fine. I am leary that "titanium" vs Boron/Moly makes much if any difference.
We have seen time after time after time that WallyOil is the equal of any oil in UOA's. Until you provide me with a UOA of these super oils or head to head comparisons...lable me skeptical.

Even even if someone did give you this mythical UOA it would not prove what you’re asking for. You are still stuck on the mistaken notion that a UOA gives comparative oil quality. It does not. Testing oils for comparative quality is expensive, time-consuming and more complicated than an uncontrolled $30 spectrographic analysis. As has been discussed here many times in the past, you may as well use a taste test. It’s easier, cheaper and doesn’t require any special equipment.

But labor on under your beliefs if you wish.

 

[DirectRejection]

IIRC, it was 0W-16 and the factory 10,000 mile Toyota OCI. The video was a rail against the 10,000 mile OCI. It was posted on here a while back.

That amount of sludge has me suspicious about what maintenance really occurred.

Also, short tripper, severe service conditions with TGMO 0W16 would call for 5k mile OCIs.

 

[TiGeo]

While I don't put much stock in most of the Youtube commentary, recent tear-downs of Toyota engines apparently using spec oil at OE intervals with stuck rings and scored walls does point to either the OE interval being too long or the lubricant simply not being up to the task of dealing with that particular engine design under those conditions.

@Trav's experience with the Honda 3.5L VCM engines is similar with huge levels of varnish and deposits using a spec lube at the OE interval while M1 0W-40 keeps them clean (an oil designed for extended drains and having to meet Euro OE requirements for that operation profile).

The counter to that is if you are experiencing ring sticking and consumption at 200,000 miles, is Joe Average going to consider what it was maintained with as an influencing factor on that result or is it just going to be chalked-up to typical wear and tear over the anticipated lifespan of the vehicle? The latter is what the OEM is generally shooting for, their parameters are not factory clean with no wear at 200,000 miles, it's reasonably clean with reasonable levels of wear over the anticipated lifespan of the equipment which commodity oil blenders will then work to meet the requirements of for the lowest cost possible.

Hmmm...Toyota's house-brand oil also didn't perform well in PF's recent testing