Oil for high performance HT/HS VW T4/Porsche 914?

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VWBobby

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I have been researching for weeks but still can't make up my mind. I really need the help of some Porsche/VW engine builders and tribologists. Lots of specs have changed in the last 2 - 3 years for oil....Very hard to keep up! I have several high performance flat tappet/solid lifter engines, Type 4/914 based and VW Type 1. Most of the engines were built around '03/04 or earlier, before the big oil freakout and flat cam scare of that era. My pride and joy is a 2270cc Type 4 with a Webcam 163/86b cam. This is in a '65 VW Bus smile Back when I built the engine, oil was not such a problem and I believe I broke it in on straight Castrol HD30 wt (2004ish). The engine only has ~400 miles on it and I changed the oil to Mobil 1 15w50 a few years ago. I haven't inspected the cam, but I want to avoid any chance of damage. Currently bought some Valvoline VR1 10w30 Conventional (~1400 Zinc/phos), but have not installed it yet. I've been reading that the "best" oil is Driven DT50 15w50 for these engines, but can't find it locally. Questions: 1) Is the VR1 10w30 OK to use for now? (have not changed it yet) 2) Is Mobil 1 15w50 SN OK for my application? (Did I do damage so far?) 3) Should I wait and buy some Driven DT50, or should I go with Amsoil, Redline, or ? 4) With articles like the 540RAT blog, it makes me wonder how important ZDDP is for HP Flat Tappet applications? Lots of muscle car engine builders still swear by high ZDDP numbers... Amsoil and Driven are mail-order only in my area. All other oils are available, Redline, and all auto parts store oils... Looking for the "best" protection for HT/HS in a High Performance flat tappet application. Keep in mind a HP VW engine can reach ~380F on the head temps under full load. Thanks in advance! -Bobby
 
The VR1 will have no problem handling a flat tappet cam. If anything, it will deliver superior performance for it. I'm not terribly familiar with those VW engines, but I'd be using the 20w50 if I were looking at oil temps that high. The M1 15/50 is fine. It's not had its zinc and additives slashed as badly as the 20 and 30 weight oils. 540RAT's "information" is dubious at best. His "science" is far from accurate. There is some debate over the importance of zinc and phosphorus to flat tappet cams, but you will be hard pressed to find a cam manufacturer who will not recommend a high zinc oil. It's just a matter of whether or not you want to stick your neck out there.
 
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Just curious, what does the owners manual for the original donor vehicle say? Would you value Porshe's recommendation? SF
Porsche will likely recommend their "Classic" 10W-60.
 
I have a 2L Type 4 motor in my 1975 Westfalia and I run Rotella 15-40 Dino in it with no valve adjustments changing. After a freeway run of about 70 miles at 65-70 mph, when I pull in for gas I check the oil temp with my fingers. It is hot but really not really that hot. Seems to work fine. I have about 3K on it since I rebuilt it. It came from New Mexico and has no chassis rust.
 
Any HDEO 15W-40. As Mobil Delvac 1300 Super has the highest ZDDP of the popular HDEO 15W-40s, that's what I use. 20W-50 might be OK in more tropical climes, but for your air-cooled engines in OR, 15W-40 should be good. I also use LM MoS2
 
Just for fun, I got on the Mobil website and checked out the oldest air cooled Porsche I could find. I came up with a 1980 911. They didn't have any data on anything older. Mobil recommends Mobil 1 15-50. That sounds like a pretty good compromise to me. SF
 
If the VR-1 10W-30 seems to thin?. Mix it 50/50 with the VR-1 20W-50. That is what I run in my BMW boxer twin (half a high performance VW engine)
 
Hi Bobby, Mobil 1 V-Twin is popular with the 911 crowd, whether there is actually any facts behind why it is popular I am not sure of. I think I have a 914 owners manual and workshop manual at the house and see if I can find the original recommendation. I settled on a HDEO when I built mine but haven’t dug into it in some years.
 
Amsoil 20w50 has high calcium high zddp content identical additive package to their CI 4 plus diesel oils. Will include link found on you tube describing the oil. It is from Amsoil guy but thought his presentations were helpful when I was looking for oil options for older Mercedes. https://youtu.be/tAJ4tqpwE4E
 
Wow, you guys are active here! Great to see such a helpful community. smile
Originally Posted By: Snagglefoot
Just curious, what does the owners manual for the original donor vehicle say? Would you value Porshe's recommendation? SF
According to VW/Porsche, all of the charts pretty much show a 15w40 or 15w50 for most all climates between 14F to around 100F. I will be operating in 40F - 60F weather until very late in the summer. When July/Aug hits, I will probably switch to a 15w40/50. Examples all look similar to this: Out shopping today I spotted Castrol Syntec Edge "with Titanium" 5w40, that meets Porsche A40/BMW LL01, ACEA, SL/SM/SN.... Found it interesting it actually mentions SL. I generally am not a big fan of Castrol, but it looks pretty good from what I have found. What do you guys think of it? Only $7.99 regular price and readily available. I was noticing most of the CK4 "Diesel"/HDEO's do not show an SN rating anymore, and the VOA's are coming back with less than 1200PPM zinc and less than 1100 phos on most of the later VOA's I've seen here. Examples would be Rotella T6 5w40 CK4. Despite this, the charts on their website show about a 100% increase in wear protection for the cam? Must be more boron, moly, or some other friction modifier that works well in this app? Still trying to learn everything I can about oil.... smile
 
I have 1993 Mercedes Diesel antithesis of power and performance to your Porsche, but requires oil with high zddp. Amsoil (have used products not a seller) has pre 2007 diesel oils that would work in your application. Mobil 1 0w40 and their 5w50 fs have a strong additive package. I have the 0w40 in car now with a touch of redline break in additive which adds calcium and zddp to oil not using that much. There is a voa on redline here. I also just saw used oil analysis of Amsoil 10w40 sane additive pack as 20w50 and 15w40 AME -is under used gasoline oil analysis https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4638107/Amsoil_10W40,_6000,_60,000#Post4638107
 
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Any multi viscosity forty weight oils can literally apply a dual gasoline rating because they-40 weight oils are exempt from zddp and saps limitations placed on thirty weight oils. This was more meaningful with cj4 oils because ck4 oils seem to have lower zddp and saps levels where they likely are dual rated acrossthe board regardless of viscosity.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
The VR1 will have no problem handling a flat tappet cam. If anything, it will deliver superior performance for it.
Good to know, was hoping it would be OK. I have some VR1 20w50 that I might add up to 50/50... I didn't like how incredibly thick it was pouring out of the bottle at 50F, very slow.
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The M1 15/50 is fine. It's not had its zinc and additives slashed as badly as the 20 and 30 weight oils.
I like it also, and it still meets the ACEA A3/B3 and API SN.
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540RAT's "information" is dubious at best. His "science" is far from accurate. There is some debate over the importance of zinc and phosphorus to flat tappet cams, but you will be hard pressed to find a cam manufacturer who will not recommend a high zinc oil.
That's what I was thinking also about the 540RAT info..... If you can't share your exact procedures or at least show some pics of your test rig, makes it impossible to come to an accurate conclusion... Sounds bogus.
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It's just a matter of whether or not you want to stick your neck out there.
With an engine that would cost me over $5K to build these days, I don't like to be the guinea pig. wink I appreciate all of the help from everyone. I saw the posts on the Porsche sites about the M1 V-twin 20w50 being a favorite for the aircooleds also. Something kinda bothers me about running a motercycle oil in a "car" engine, but it must be OK... If I am spending $10+ a qt, I think I would go with a Group 4/5 synthetic.
 
Out shopping today I spotted Castrol Syntec Edge "with Titanium" 5w40, that meets Porsche A40/BMW LL01, ACEA, SL/SM/SN.... Found it interesting it actually mentions SL. I believe they mention SL to make owners of old cars feel comfortable that the SN is OK for their old cars specifying SL. SF
 
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Originally Posted By: spiderbypass
Any multi viscosity forty weight oils can literally apply a dual gasoline rating because they-40 weight oils are exempt from zddp and saps limitations placed on thirty weight oils. This was more meaningful with cj4 oils because ck4 oils seem to have lower zddp and saps levels where they likely are dual rated acrossthe board regardless of viscosity.
That must be why there are still some oils that mention in the fine print SM ratings for fleet use. They just don't mention it on the API doughnut. Looks like Delvac 1 5w40 ESP is still a favorite in the Porsche crowd also: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4443398/Garak#Post4443398 If you go by the builder endorsements and Mobil's description, it sounds like this is some pretty outstanding oil for $25 a jug. smile Just wondering how this would compare to the M1 15w50 or V-Twin?
 
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