Oil for classic car - Canada

[JeffKeryk]

Nice Oldsey. I have a 65 4-4-2; your engine used the Q-Jet whild the 400 in our car was the last year of the 4-Jet.
Run a nice 10w30 for stock valve spring pressures. I have been using the Castrol Hot Rod oil.

I used to run the old Shell Rotella T 15w40, but my understanding is the newer stuff changed the formula.

Love your car.

 

[hank2]

It's definitely a flat tappet engine. From what may be available in CA., I would use the HD 10w30. Also do shorter mileage changes on what is likely an occasionally driven car. Motorcycle spec 10w30 or 10w40 blend would be another pricier option. Personally, I wouldn't go to 20w50.

A neighborhood friend's family had a new '66 Toranado. A boss in the snow, back then with the fwd . They have to be very rare today. Like other higher compression luxury or muscle cars, the intended fuel was the then common 97 pump octane premium gas. Perhaps back down the static ignition timing a bit on 91 or 93 or set up a water/ethanol assist.

 

[ourkid2000]

What part of Canada are you in? I’m in Ontario and we have 94 octane at a lot of Petro Canada stations and a lot of Esso and Shell stations sell 93.

That's because Petro bought out the old Sunoco stations which were only in Ontario (there may have been some in the West as well but not sure). Somehow they kept that line of fuel running.

But over here in the Maritimes, the highest you can get is 91 unfortunately.

 

[Patman]

That's because Petro bought out the old Sunoco stations which were only in Ontario (there may have been some in the West as well but not sure). Somehow they kept that line of fuel running.

But over here in the Maritimes, the highest you can get is 91 unfortunately.

That’s a bummer! I was in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia in 2023 and I only saw a handful of gas stations but I did notice at that time that they only had 91. I didn’t realize it was more widespread. My Vette wouldn’t be happy out there, it needs 93

 

[PontiacHO]

That 425 is the best bore to stroke Olds big block ever produced in my opinion. I’m using VR-1 in my 68 Pontiac. Yes breaking in a flat tappet cam, the zinc is required but….why chance ruining a great engine with a flat cam lobe (metal throughout engine). Use an oil designed for flat tappet engines.

 

[marc1]

I've been struggling trying to figure out what oil to use in the thing.

No need to struggle, there are many good choices at your local Canadian Tire (PUP, M1, QS, Castrol etc.). You do not need a special high zinc oil. Your factory valve spring pressures are not high enough to require high zinc and the engine has 80,000 miles on it, so definitely no reason to run high zinc. There are most components to anti-wear in oil than strictly ZDDP content as well. I am preferential to 10w30 in my old cars as well but I use 5w30 when 10w30 can't be found. Walmart Canada has M1 10w30, I just bought a 4.73L jug on Black Friday for my Impala ($29.99 cdn), that would be your best bet if you want a 10w30. If you want conventional oil, Castrol GTX is still made in 10w30 but it is scarce, at least where I live. The only issue I have with conventional oil is, with rebates, sales etc., the cost is pretty close to synthetic so I just buy synthetic.

 

[Chris142]

Negative. 91 is the best I can get around here unfortunately.

Not good enough for a cast iron head big block with 10-1 compression

 

[SumGuy]

What about the valve seats? Would any '66 engine have hardened valve seats? (oh yea, you'd need a fuel additive, if any exist, to deal with that).

So according to this:

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-for...-zddp-zinc-and-phosphorus-4.html#post19655796

leaded gas had boosted levels of ZDDP (1600 ppm) because of some chemical reactions involving other additives because of the TEL. When lead was removed from gasoline, the spec for ZDDP immediately fell to 800 ppm.

"GM allegedly carried out studies in the late 70's and determined that their engines only needed 800 ppm and strangely enough that eventually became the de-facto std when service category API SN was introduced in 2001 or whenever. Even though the amounts of ZDDP were reduced the qualifying performance tests were never relaxed and the same level of performance had to be attained by the use of other additives."

I thought it was being posted on BITOG that ZDDP levels have been "silently" falling over the past what - 10 years. Can you really count on some random 10w30 to have 800 PPM ZDDP today if that's important to you?

 

[SC Maintenance]

What about the valve seats? Would any '66 engine have hardened valve seats? (oh yea, you'd need a fuel additive, if any exist, to deal with that).

^^ This. I grew up wrenching on cars in a time where burnt up valve seats and worn valves were common. Long before leaded gas completely vanished, unleaded was often a couple pennies cheaper so people ran it - and even on early 1970's lower compression engines, valves were a problem.

If its unmolested I would run shell 10W-30 and worry about the octane / valves, not the oil. The oil you buy today is superior to 1966. The gasoline really is not - from a engine longevity standpoint.

 

[twX]

"GM allegedly carried out studies in the late 70's and determined that their engines only needed 800 ppm and strangely enough that eventually became the de-facto std when service category API SN was introduced in 2001 or whenever. Even though the amounts of ZDDP were reduced the qualifying performance tests were never relaxed and the same level of performance had to be attained by the use of other additives."

Not only were the standards never relaxed, they were made even more stringent when phosphorus was reduced to 800 ppm with API SM. API SP introduced an even more stringent valvetrain wear test for flat tappet engines. Modern oils are required to have better wear performance on flat tappet engines, despite the lower phosphorus requirements.

How well ZDDP works depends on which specific types are used, how much the other additives in the oil compete with it, and what other antioxidants are added to the oil to prevent the ZDDP from degrading. The amount of phosphorus shown on a spec sheet or VOA is hardly relevant. The industry has had decades to work out how to make oil perform better with less phosphorus, and I think they've done it.

As for the valve seat wear on engines designed for leaded fuel, the industry's solution seems to have been to just let those old engines die. It's something I'd be a lot more concerned about.

 

[hemitom]

If available in your area Petro Canada Duron SHP is a very good oil comes in 10w30 .

 

[bullwinkle]

What about the valve seats? Would any '66 engine have hardened valve seats? (oh yea, you'd need a fuel additive, if any exist, to deal with that).

So according to this:

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-for...-zddp-zinc-and-phosphorus-4.html#post19655796

leaded gas had boosted levels of ZDDP (1600 ppm) because of some chemical reactions involving other additives because of the TEL. When lead was removed from gasoline, the spec for ZDDP immediately fell to 800 ppm.

"GM allegedly carried out studies in the late 70's and determined that their engines only needed 800 ppm and strangely enough that eventually became the de-facto std when service category API SN was introduced in 2001 or whenever. Even though the amounts of ZDDP were reduced the qualifying performance tests were never relaxed and the same level of performance had to be attained by the use of other additives."

I thought it was being posted on BITOG that ZDDP levels have been "silently" falling over the past what - 10 years. Can you really count on some random 10w30 to have 800 PPM ZDDP today if that's important to you?

T5 10W30 does have 1150-1200 PPM Zn, and there are ZDDP additives that can boost it higher if desired-although, IMHO, there really isn’t enough spring pressure to need it. Not sure if avgas is available up there (or legal for on-road use): but we may or may not have used it in the old days to get some lead on the valve seats!

 

[ourkid2000]

T5 10W30 does have 1150-1200 PPM Zn, and there are ZDDP additives that can boost it higher if desired-although, IMHO, there really isn’t enough spring pressure to need it. Not sure if avgas is available up there (or legal for on-road use): but we may or may not have used it in the old days to get some lead on the valve seats!

I just use a bit of VP Madditive octane booster. It has a lead subsitute plus it give me a little octane. I don't run the car hard so it's pretty much as good as I'm gonna get. I've been looking for a source of 100LL avgas but haven't found one yet.

 

[kschachn]

I always thought that if you had only used regular oil for decades that if you switched to synthetic that you're likely to start getting some oil leaks.

No not with any synthetic blended in the past 40 years.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I always thought that if you had only used regular oil for decades that if you switched to synthetic that you're likely to start getting some oil leaks.

Open for a lot of debate.

Conventional oil will to a degree penetrate a seal and cause it to remain pliable, and in some cases even swell a bit - really old seals especially.

Some synthetic base stock can cause seals to "dry out" or basically become less pliable. So the blenders add various additives to counteract this - and replace the natural properties of lower group oils. Generally this works fine, especially for modern engines with modern seals.

However seal designers test their seals based on whatever oil they are spec'd only. So whether the new oils provide the same, more, or less function is always the question.

If you have a very old engine that is not leaking, I would stick with whatever oil your running, or as close as you can get to it, and that is what I do personally with my 400K mile Xterra. Comparatively its pretty new - 16 years. But it doesn't leak. Don't fix what isn't broken IMHO.

 

[SumGuy]

> If available in your area Petro Canada Duron SHP is a very good oil comes in 10w30.

> T5 10W30 does have 1150-1200 PPM Zn

Canada tire:

Shell Rotella T5 10W30 Heavy-Duty Synthetic-Blend Diesel Engine/Motor Oil, 18.9-L $136

Unfortunately, this product is discontinued in your selected store and nearby stores.

Petro-Canada DURON SHP Super High Performance CK-4 15W40 Heavy-Duty Synthetic-Blend Diesel Engine/Motor Oil, 20-L $120

Unfortunately, this product is discontinued in your selected store and nearby stores.

Petro-Canada DURON HP High Performance CK-4 15W40 Conventional Diesel Engine/Motor Oil, 20-L $80

Unfortunately, this product is discontinued in your selected store and nearby stores.

Google shows me Canada Tire links when searching for the above oil, and CT website brings them up, shows prices, but says they're not available. Searching on CT website for "duron" turns up nothing, but searching for "rotella" turns up a lot of hits, mostly just a few different oils in various container sizes.

There is available a T4 "Triple Protection" 10W30 5-gal pail ($145) and 5L jug ($52) but low quantities.

There is also T5 and T6 available (but prob. not in 10W30).

There are also pails of Rotella straight 30 (T1) no indication that it's synthetic or syn blend. $150 but limited availability.

Are there ZDDP differences between T4/5/6 products?

 

[FCD]

Can you not get any flavor of A3/B4 rated 5W-40 in Canada?.
Any such oil would work perfectly in it.

 

[Chris142]

Long before leaded gas completely vanished, unleaded was often a couple pennies cheaper so people ran it - and even on early 1970's lower compression engines

Was opposite here. People including me would waller out the unleaded only filler neck so we could use the cheaper ieaded gas.

 

[kschachn]

Open for a lot of debate.

Conventional oil will to a degree penetrate a seal and cause it to remain pliable, and in some cases even swell a bit - really old seals especially.

Some synthetic base stock can cause seals to "dry out" or basically become less pliable. So the blenders add various additives to counteract this - and replace the natural properties of lower group oils. Generally this works fine, especially for modern engines with modern seals.

However seal designers test their seals based on whatever oil they are spec'd only. So whether the new oils provide the same, more, or less function is always the question.

If you have a very old engine that is not leaking, I would stick with whatever oil your running, or as close as you can get to it, and that is what I do personally with my 400K mile Xterra. Comparatively its pretty new - 16 years. But it doesn't leak. Don't fix what isn't broken IMHO.

And with today’s primarily Group III synthetics the ancient issue with improperly additized Group IV is even further in the mirror. For all practical purposes the base molecules are the same between “conventional” oils, blends and synthetics. And they all contain the required amount of seal sweller, in accordance with API license requirements and/or manufacturer approvals. Including today’s Group IV synthetics.

 

[imeem]

can you get redline 10w30? https://www.redlineoil.com/10w30-motor-oil