Oil companies to screw us again

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: javacontour
You have total control over how much you pay, by reducing how much you buy.


I have control over whether I drive to my parent's place for the weekend or stay at home, or go to the next town to buy the children a bike for Christmas or to stay in town and they don't get a bike...All of which is probably 10% of my annual fuel useage.

We walk to the shops, supermarket, park etc.

I have next to zero control over the bulk of my fuel consumption which is used to get to and from work, drive the children 120km as local medical facilities are a farce, Drive MIL 160km for chemo/radio therapy etc.

The Railways have been wound down, and there is zero public transport available to more than half of Australia's population. Govt's made sure of that.

 

[Al]

Originally Posted By: javacontour

The oil companies do not set the price. They may set the supply, but then we consumers control the demand.

Don't like paying as much for gas, well buy less.
Its better to blame the Oil Companies and Government. Beyond Joe SixPack's comprehension.

 

[mikered30]

Exxon shatters profit records,earns $1,300 a second in 2007

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/index.htm?cnn=yes

 

[bob_ninja]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: javacontour
You have total control over how much you pay, by reducing how much you buy.


I have control over whether I drive to my parent's place for the weekend or stay at home, or go to the next town to buy the children a bike for Christmas or to stay in town and they don't get a bike...All of which is probably 10% of my annual fuel useage.

We walk to the shops, supermarket, park etc.

I have next to zero control over the bulk of my fuel consumption which is used to get to and from work, drive the children 120km as local medical facilities are a farce, Drive MIL 160km for chemo/radio therapy etc.

The Railways have been wound down, and there is zero public transport available to more than half of Australia's population. Govt's made sure of that.


I agree with both of you. Sure often we lack public transport and have no choice but to drive. However, there are a number of options. The most extreme of course would be to move some place where public transport is available. There are also many easy options as well.

There is a big difference between driving an empty F150 to buy milk or kid's bike and a compact car like your Corolla or a hybrid Prius. So we DO have the choice to consume half as much gasoline for the same drive. You driving remains the same, just using a different machine.

Then there is driving style as others pointed out. Again, this will change.

Between smaller vehciles and better driving style we could at least cut our transportation consumption in half in a few years. The price will force us to do it even without laws at some point. Too bad people don't see clearly the future and don't change before it costs us all a fortune to drive.

P.S.: Another choice coming in the near future is to not use any gasoline: gm-volt.com

 

[crw]

Exxon may have made $40B last year, but they also paid $30B in taxes.

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/

 

[ekpolk]

I reviewed this thread with some amusement early this morning. Then I went to work, and as of noon local time Friday, I've already logged almost 150 miles of driving (I practice law in the three western-most counties of Florida). Since I was driving pretty fast (today is a "trade gas for time" day, not vice versa...), that means I've burned about 3.3 gallons. So I've used roughly $10.00 worth of gas.

I was paying particular attention today, and I remain simply amazed at the number of dude ranch pickups out there, carrying one passenger, and sporting unscratched, gleaming trailer hitches. And then there are the Kenneth Starr look-alikes in their single-passenger Suburbans -- same concept.

Had I driven a full-size PU or SUV, I'd have used ~10 gallons of fuel -- roughly triple what I actually did. Multiply that across all the unnecessary pickups and SUVs across the country, and it's not hard to see why our petro usage is so bloated.

Oh well, whatever, sooner or later the economics will catch up with us. The Prius didn't overtake the Explorer in sales because it's a cool car (well, I think it is, but that's another story). Joe SixPack WILL start to get it when he finally finds himself with his credit cards maxed out from gasoline, and having to choose between the next six-pack and enough gas to get to work tomorrow.

 

[SD26]

How much does a Prius battery cost?

What's the resale on a F250 diesel with 180k miles compared to a Prius with 180k miles?

All does go back to the pocket book, and choice.

The high prices of fuel are helping with new technology since it makes more economic sense. It makes sense to go after new opportunities that might have been costly. It's "bad", but it's not bad.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Regular grade gas has been below two dollars as late as mid-2006 here in Omaha. I suppose it is largely the same all around the U.S., except in those places that are always higher than most.

Yet, to hear the caterwauling about how stupid Americans are, and how we've ALWAYS known what was going to happen, and that anybody who drives a vehicle larger than a clown car is scum, and to add $5 in taxes to each gallon of gas is the only way...Geez, you'd think it's the end of the world as we know it.

If you want to rise up against something, rise up against: people perpetuating the Peak Oil myth (there's more crude in the ground than we could use in hundreds of years), against the NIMBYs keeping new refineries from being built, against the people keeping Yucca Mtn from being opened, against parochialism in the Congress and Senate (sticky palms), against those who won't allow drilling in search of all the oil in/around/under all of the U.S. and all of the coastal regions. In short, just about everybody.

It ain't just the people that drive trucks and SUVs. Everybody can look in the mirror and accept some guilt for our rising prices.

You want more oil? Go out and drill for it and build a place to refine it.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: SD26
How much does a Prius battery cost?

What's the resale on a F250 diesel with 180k miles compared to a Prius with 180k miles?

All does go back to the pocket book, and choice.

The high prices of fuel are helping with new technology since it makes more economic sense. It makes sense to go after new opportunities that might have been costly. It's "bad", but it's not bad.


The Prius traction battery costs $2300 (internet myths about $8k batteries, and such are simply that, dishonest myths). I've already saved that, and about another half-battery's worth compared to the sedan I was driving before I bought my Prius almost 45k miles ago.

There are several examples of Prii, both Gen-I and Gen-II with substantially over 200k miles still running fine on their first batteries. Toyota is calling it a life-time, just as engines and transmissions are for most cars. As with engines and transmissions, there have been, and will be, some rare failures, but the emphasis is on rare.

Resale values? I'll take my chances on the Prius. Suggested retail on a 2001 Prius, with 180k miles is $11,200. An 2001 F250 Diesel with same miles, crew cab, short bed, 4x2, similar options to Prius is $15,400. These figures are per Kelley BB. Of course the F250 cost pretty much double what the Prius did back in 2001. . .

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-any-vehicle, particularly pickups, or anything else. I'm all for using the correct, appropriate choice for the situation. Sooner or later, we're going to have to face the fact (a fact faced long ago across oceans in all directions) that buying vehicles for "tough guy" image purposes is silly and not economically viable. Those who want to "play" cowboy should consider riding a horse. If you actually have horses to haul, well sure, do so with a proper tow mule. But for the downtown CPA, executive, or lawyer who never hauls anything heavier than his lard-padded bottom to work, an F250 diesel is an absurd, unnecessary burden on everyone.

I don't WANT to see gas at $5/gal, but we'll get there sooner or later (probably sooner), and when we do, a lot of folks are going to have to start making some "real" choices, no matter how hard Ford and Chevy are trying to convince us that "real men" drive pickups and SUVs. In the meantime, 1) I'm enjoying my Prius-driven fuel savings, while 2) remaining secure in my knowledge that with almost three decades service as a United States Marine, I don't need a motor vehicle of any description to establish my manhood. . .

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
.... I'm enjoying my Prius-driven fuel savings, while 2) remaining secure in my knowledge that with almost three decades service as a United States Marine, I don't need a motor vehicle of any description to establish my manhood. . .

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
. . .
Yet, to hear the caterwauling about how stupid Americans are, and how we've ALWAYS known what was going to happen, and that anybody who drives a vehicle larger than a clown car is scum, and to add $5 in taxes to each gallon of gas is the only way...Geez, you'd think it's the end of the world as we know it.
. . .


Excellent example of an ad absurdum argument. Let's break this down some. First, no one is "scum" because of the motor vehicle they choose to operate. People are scum when they do things like commit murder, rape innocent people (or even bad ones...), rob banks, and so forth. On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with questioning the wisdom of a guy who chooses to drive a 15 mpg pickup to work as his commuter "car" when a Malibu, burning less than half the gas, would accomplish the mission just as well.

Taxes? That's an entirely separate issue, and one that we'd better just leave alone here.

End of the world? C'mon now, let's be real. Five-buck gas won't be the end of the world, but it certainly will be a gut punch for the economy. We've adjusted before, and we will in the future, but let's face it, driving gas guzzlers we don't really need is pretty much tantamount to placing our delicate collective family jewels right in the hands of a bunch of Islam-o-facists who'd just as soon wipe us from the face of the earth as sell us oil. Please let me know if I'm somehow wrong on this point.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

ekpolk, "scum" is a relative term, but there have been comments made that would lead most observant people to believe that "scum" is what was being muttered under the commenting person's breath. So, "scum" isn't far from some people's saying out loud.

And to question the wisdom of a guy choosing to drive even a 10mpg truck (like mine) would mean you (or somebody) are making a value judgement. Why would it be un-wise? Other than the fact the person is paying a gas-guzzler tax of his own, what's the harm? One could bring out and shake today's biggest boogey-man, Man-Made Global Warming, or perhaps his evil twin C02 Emissions, but that would require a belief that those 1)exist, and 2) are able to be mitigated by driving clown cars. I don't believe in those boogy-men, so I cannot proclaim as valid a value judgement against low MPG vehicles.

Why leave alone taxes? Those are one of the more proclaimed mechanisms to reduce gas usage. Political? This entire argument is political. Let's call this spade a spade.

The phrase was, "...you'd think it's the end of the world as we know it." Clearly tongue in cheek.

While the Saudis and the other OPEC-ers are the ones we can directly point to and say, "They're the ones that started it all, officer.", we can easily sidestep this entire problem by producing and refining the oil we have inside our borders.

After, that is, we drive over the Earth-First crowd laying in the road with our F-250SD to get to that oil.

 

[Quest]

How much does a Prius battery cost?

What's the resale on a F250 diesel with 180k miles compared to a Prius with 180k miles?

All does go back to the pocket book, and choice.

LOL! You are forgetting the biggest reason behind running a prius vs a F250 is that while it uses battery, it generates less exhaust gas mile per mile.

Yes, you may counter-argue the pollution associated with making the battery pack buy hey! Equally INTERESTING is the fact that gasoline refining process would have generate just as much pollutants (mostly in a different form of pollution).

So, one way or another, pick your poison (I would go with Prius or a smaller CC car)

Q.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
. . .

And to question the wisdom of a guy choosing to drive even a 10mpg truck (like mine) would mean you (or somebody) are making a value judgement. Why would it be un-wise? Other than the fact the person is paying a gas-guzzler tax of his own, what's the harm? One could bring out and shake today's biggest boogey-man, Man-Made Global Warming, or perhaps his evil twin C02 Emissions, but that would require a belief that those 1)exist, and 2) are able to be mitigated by driving clown cars. I don't believe in those boogy-men, so I cannot proclaim as valid a value judgement against low MPG vehicles.
. . .


Lot's of over-sensitivity here. No boogey-men in my opinion, global warming or whatever. Much more down to earth. If several million drivers are all consuming 2x - 3x more petro than they really need to, especially where many of them are doing it for no reason better than that they've been convinced that they "need" a truck to project an image, the problem is just excess demand. All the unnecessary trucks carrying CPAs and execs to work in the city result in inflated demand for petroleum, which by nothing more than the rules of supply and demand, results in increased prices.

You're entitled to not believe in those more ephemeral boogey-men, no problem there. In contrast, I live in coastal Florida, where several times in the last few years, we've had gas lines after major storms. When you're sitting in a gas line hoping that there'll still be some left when you get to the pump, you'll begin wondering about the wisdom of pickups as commuter cars, especially when a bunch of 'em are lined up in front of you. There's noting debatable or ephemeral about a NO GAS TODAY sign in front of every station in town.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

"...2x - 3x more petro than they really need to..." Again, value judgement. Who's to say what is needed. If I want my truck who are you (or anybody) to say I'm a chump and think ill of me for any reason. That is a social value judgement, one we all make at people for a variety of beliefs. Understood, but to be a compadre one would have to believe likewise. I'm more libertarian on this kind of thing. One of my favorite sayings is, "And just who the h*** (heck) are you that it matters what you think?"

"the problem is just excess demand." The problem is insufficient production, brought about by lack of national will, as a culmination of the hippy-ization of the American culture. Rather than roll up the sleeves and drill, we'll complain on forums about SUVs being the problem.

Your gas lines are a local issue brought about by local circumstances. I didn't suffer any shortages up here. The problem is not the 38 gallon tanks of all the trucks, the problem is people living in coastal Florida where the hurricanes hit. It's gonna happen, be prepared to overcome or hunker down.

Drill more. Refine more. Once the OPEC-ers don't have a strangle hold on the supply, just watch as prices come down to a realistic level.

Now if we can just get the oil companies to agree to voluntarily and unilaterally reduce their prices and profits.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Mr_Incredible
Drill more. Refine more. Once the OPEC-ers don't have a strangle hold on the supply, just watch as prices come down to a realistic level.


And then it immediately becomes non economically viable to drill inside your borders. The drillers go broke, and reliance switches back to the cheaper imported stuff...until the price rises enough to warrant drilling locally again.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Aye, there's the rub...

And, so, it is why I believe we'll not see cheap oil again. The tide has turned and the oil companies are riding the wave.

But, as soon as some obscure technology begins to look promising I would bet my own money that the price of oil would plummet for some strange reason. Then go back up again after the obscure technology was sufficiently dead.

We're screwed no matter what...

 

[ConfederateTyrant]

Not trying to hijack the thread, but has anyone else heard that the U.S. gets most of the oil from Canada?

I never heard that before, but that was on Jeopardy a few weeks ago. I have heard that we get most from the Gulf and the Middle East.

Now back onto the topic, I agree that people are responsible for what they drive, and how much they drive. However, I also believe that there is something within the big oil companies that is keeping prices up. Inflation does keep prices up as well, and with China's growth, their consumption of oil will affect our prices (that is, if my above question is false and we get it from the middle east).

Building another refinery will be beneficial, but we don't have enough supply coming in to warrant it. However, having a backup refinery would be logical in the event that one is flooded, burned, or highly damaged.

My personal opinion is that all automotive related companies need to stop investing so much money into alternative fuel vehicles, and focus on creating a fuel from guaranteed renewable resources (NOT corn) that can be burned in all existing gasoline engines, without the need for any conversion kits. E85 has it's benefits, but it's downfalls could crush our economy even more.

 

[Mr_Incredible]

Most of our oil comes from Canada and Mexico, as I have heard.

With the North Slope of Alaska on the decline, drilling in ANWR and the subsequent production would be the equivalent of our imports from the Middle East (or at least Saudi Arabia). The argument goes that we won't see it for ten years, but if we'd started ten years ago we'd be in it now.

If the oil companies build more refineries, the price of oil will go down again. It wasn't that long ago that oil was $30-40 a barrel and the companies were relatively "poor." I'm sure you'd have to rassle them a long time to get them to voluntarily make their pocketbooks thinner.

We could make a change on a slow curve to many different bright ideas on changing the petroleum pardigm, but it'll be slow and painful. There won't be any big change unless we find an energy source as versatile as crude, and that'll take some looking!

 

[Titan]

I just load up on Oil Company Stocks as a cushion against higher oil prices. I make far more money doing this than I spend in higher fuel prices. And, I keep my blood pressure down by not arguing about who's fault it is in the meantime.