Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain?

[jrustles]

Timing chains are an oil shear nightmare.
I'd worry about temporary shear stability of the oil film itself vs reliance on additives.

Boundary lubrication may not be sufficient for chains, especially against non-metallic (nylon) guides where additives don't quite work as they do on metal. Valvetrain forces and backlash resonances also pound the links many times per revolution. Things to consider..

What happened to double-chain setups of the 70s + 80s?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: jrustles


What happened to double-chain setups of the 70s + 80s?


BMW seemed to persist with them, LOL! My car has a massive double-roller chain.

Not my car but a better shot of the chain:

 

[tig1]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Timing chains are an oil shear nightmare.
I'd worry about temporary shear stability of the oil film itself vs reliance on additives.

Boundary lubrication may not be sufficient for chains, especially against non-metallic (nylon) guides where additives don't quite work as they do on metal. Valvetrain forces and backlash resonances also pound the links many times per revolution. Things to consider..

What happened to double-chain setups of the 70s + 80s?


Oil shear nightmare?? Your statement would indicate early chain wear. That doesn't seem to match up with reality, at least with the Ford engines I have owned.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: FetchFar

The stretching is from wear, not plastic deformation of the steel. Wear at each/every pin/link interface.


Curious as to what your source is for this?


He's on the money there, that's typical chain life stuff...

Slightly off topic, one of the areas that I was looking after the last few years has a 100 foot chain, running in a bath of water at pH 4, and full of ash particles...24/7/365, and it lasts 2 years, life determined by stretch, which is elongation due to wear between the links.

It hasn't been mentioned in this thread, but alignment of sprockets and idlers is absolutely essential to get "normal" rather half life out of the machine.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Oil shear nightmare?? Your statement would indicate early chain wear. That doesn't seem to match up with reality, at least with the Ford engines I have owned.


It's like everything that I keep saying on this board...everyone has designs, and they are different...x works with Ford doesn't mean X works with GM...

e.g.

versus

Big pulleys reduce chain tension (think levers), which reduces the loading between the links, loading tooth to link...

and different chain design.

 

[FetchFar]

Wow, fantastic tech discussion. I can't thank enough. OK, based on jrustles comments above, does that make one think a higher-viscosity or a lower visc oil will improve things, as GM currently specifies a 30. ? Does a pure PAO synthetic strengthen boundary, which would mean I'd go for Amsoil signature or German Castrol me supposes.

I still think if I could just get a little moly into those pin/bushing/link interfaces then abrading goes down..... Wish I had proof that would work.

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: lonestar
I have an 09 Enclave and thus have kept up with the TC situation as much as possible. I believe all of the 09 Lambda platform vehicles have been issued a supplemental 10 year / 100K mile (whichever occurs first) warranty on the TC. I know I got a letter from GM stating such. Clearly the materials used in the TCs in the pre 2010 3.6DIs were sub-par but other factors contribute to the stretching. The initial OLM programming, assuming conventional oil, was set to run out to 9K to 12K miles. The lead mechanic at one of the Buick dealerships in Dallas told me that people driving these vehicles never give their oil a second thought until the OLM light came one. Then, when convenient (no telling how many more miles they drove), they maybe would get the oil changed. The 3.6DIs use oil and the lead mechanic told me they saw many vehicles coming in down 2 or more quarts of oil when the OLM illuminated. When the oil level drops the TC in the 3.6DI does not get proper lubrication. Additionally, 9K to 12K OCIs was maybe overly optimistic for conventional oil, heck even synthetic oil, in this engine. UOAs on site supports this as well. Literally there were two types of TCs in the pre-2010 3.6DI – those that had failed and those that were going to fail.

So, the OLM was recalibrated (still assuming conventional oil) to try and accomplish two things, 1) hopefully try to keep the engines from getting low on oil due the majority of owners never checking their oil between changes, and 2) avoid oil from getting too contaminated as a result of fuel dilution.

For me my 09 Enclave car has 32K miles and will be 5 years old in Feb. 2014 and to my knowledge has none of the symptoms of the TC issue so far. However, my max OCI on this vehicle has been 4K miles, I am currently running PU, and I use the larger PF63 size oil filter instead of the OEM PF48 size. I check the oil once a week and keep the level at the full mark. In the past I have run M1 (horrible UOA in my engine), Amsoil, Kendall FS w/Titanium, and PU all 5W30.

For me, never again will I purchase a first year car or car with a first year for the engine or transmission.


Chain oil is fed from a passage, and as long as you have oil pressure, even if the sump level is very low (but still above the pickup) then I just don't see how you can starve the chain.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
440Magnum, Lets say I decided to use the mopar-approved SRT-speced oil Pennzoil 0w-40. I'd like to, since its speced high and Penske Indycars use it, kind of like an extra torture test. Does anybody know if a using a 40 oil like that in an engine that normally sees a 30 oil will run into a problem with the oil jets which squirt the underside of the pistons and cylinder walls, as in will the thicker oil not get eough mass up there?


Actually that oil is a bit weak compared to their older spec of M1 0W-40, IMO.

GM's newer Dexos specification is quite robust.

I would agree with the conjecture that this is more about parts than oils, although shortening the OCI interval is a start...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: CentAmDL650
.It stuns me that GM would claim they just realized they should carbo-nitride the parts in a chain to get adequate life out of it. The cheap buzzards were just building an inferior product in hopes a few extra dollars per unit, ultimately to stave off their inevitable demise.


I wonder, is it customary to carbonitride chains? Or similar surface hardening? ... from Chrysler, Honda, BMW, Nissan, etc., what is usually done? ... Whats really weird is that GM has been making that High Feature V6 since 2003, and then added carbonitriding in 2010, late.


It should be noted that the overwhelming majority of owners do not post on Internet forums. I know folks with these engines who have never had an issue...

Also, I have yet to see an OLM equipped GM vehicle that does not also have an oil level sensor in the pan that will illuminate the OLM indicator. That yellow light flashing would cause even the most jaded owner to at least try and figure out what is going on...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: jrustles
Timing chains are an oil shear nightmare.
I'd worry about temporary shear stability of the oil film itself vs reliance on additives.

Boundary lubrication may not be sufficient for chains, especially against non-metallic (nylon) guides where additives don't quite work as they do on metal. Valvetrain forces and backlash resonances also pound the links many times per revolution. Things to consider..

What happened to double-chain setups of the 70s + 80s?


Oil shear nightmare?? Your statement would indicate early chain wear. That doesn't seem to match up with reality, at least with the Ford engines I have owned.


Actually it doesn't match up well at all. My car also has a massive timing chain setup and has no problems even with a very aggressive factory cam profile, big valves, and mega springs.

There are cyclical pulsations in the chain caused by downstream forces. These can drastically change wear patterns upstream in any valvetrain...

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: jrustles
Boundary lubrication may not be sufficient for chains, especially against non-metallic (nylon) guides where additives don't quite work as they do on metal.


Wondering how the impregnability of polymers goes at creating (for want of a better word) sandpaper in either guide, or pulley.

White metal bearings were chosen to allow small particles to be pressed into the material, and then be clear of the hydrodynamically lubricated parts...impregnation and boundary lubes probably not the bet idea, even if nylon is a good bearing material on it's own.

 

[nitehawk55]

Well call the problem what you want , bottom line is if it's a common issue with these engines it's a poor design , poor materials or some of both .

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: martinq
Here's a nice article on chain wear:
http://www.diamondchain.com/understanding-wear-life.php

... and this chart illustrates the break-in and life-wear stages:
http://www.iwis.de/en/drive-systems/brands-products/elite/lubricants/initial-lubricants/

Enjoyed reading that. The chart gives us some understanding of how the right oil lube anti-wear (Elidur in this case) additive can, well here is the qoute: "An optimized wear additive in the oil improves the performance of ELITE roller and conveyor chains up to 250%! " --- Now if they would just tell us whats in Elidur oil, anybody know???

 

[FetchFar]

Originally Posted By: martinq
I would think that any modern high-performance oil would address the wear issue. I would look for something with a good dose of Moly (or the newer trinuclear type) or something that performs as well in boundary lubrication.

Red Line, Mobil 1, Motul would be good places to start.

I believe that GF-6 is going to have a test to address chain-wear.


Yep, I'm hoping the high moly Mazda 0w-20 or Schaeffer 5w-30, the only two high moly ones out there i see, (reference http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html ), may help with chain wear. I'll use Lubro Moly MoS2 additive until I can get my hands on those oils next oil change. Or maybe the German company (see above) will tell me what makes Elidur work.

Great news about the still-formative GF-6 plans!

 

[BrandonT]

Have post-2010 engines still had TC failures? I'm guessing they did since GM only recently shortened the OLM on these (IIRC)?

 

[Lex94]

@FetchFar

Here is some more info that may prove useful to you.
High Moly might not be the only solution.

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

 

[David1]

Originally Posted By: Lex94
@FetchFar

Here is some more info that may prove useful to you.
High Moly might not be the only solution.

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


all Engines with Timing chains are NON INTERFERENCE Correct?

I wish they had somthing that would make a timng belt last longer

but oil dont hit the timing belt or at least its not suppose to unless you have a leak.

 

[yonyon]

Originally Posted By: David1

all Engines with Timing chains are NON INTERFERENCE Correct?


This is not so. It's just that chains are generally expected to last the lifetime of the engine without breaking or jumping (this doesn't always work out) so there's less concern about interference with a chain.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: David1
but oil dont hit the timing belt or at least its not suppose to unless you have a leak.


There are wet belts.

 

[Lex94]

The new Ford 1.0L EcoBoost has a wet belt.