Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain?

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No one has addressed the issue of cyclical vibration patterns in the chain due to valve events. This is HUGE in valvetrain design.


Surely that's an issue that the designer and vendor are to address rather than the end user...

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SteveSRT8
No one has addressed the issue of cyclical vibration patterns in the chain due to valve events. This is HUGE in valvetrain design.


Surely that's an issue that the designer and vendor are to address rather than the end user...


Seems reasonable.

But I still think this is just like the HUGELY overblown Pentastar V6 head issue. Since no one knows the exact number of afflicted engines it may just be a tiny minority who have them.

A quick google search for timing chain issues brought so many results it covers almost every brand made! This could be a HUGE crisis!

Not...

 

[robd]

After having owned a 2010 Traverse (built in 2009) with the 3.6 I can tell you the problem has several sides. One the length of the oil run, the climate and type of driving, and fuel dilution from the direct injection. After reading the stories about chain failures I assumed it was because of long oil change intervals so I decided to go with 3000 mile max beginning when new. I used several quality synthetic oils and did uoa's on them and it showed the oil was at its end of life tbn of 1. So I decided to run Dino with 3000 mile changes. Oil held up just as well. Fuel dilution was horrible in cold weather. No chain failure in 75000 miles. What did gm do , they shortened the oil change interval .This is new technology and I believe the oils were not up to the task at hand. Dexos was also introduced and this oil seems to be doing well in these engines. It's not so much the base oil but the additives from my point of view that determines how long these chains last. In 2016 GF 6 hopefully will test for chain wear but until then I'm hoping dexos and short changes will suffice. Maybe moly is the answer it seems dexos has a high dose of it. The new engines after mid 2010 have the better chain also.

 

[Ayrton]

I worry about this as well in my Saab 2.8 V6 (same GM high feature engine with Turbo). No direct injection though, so that is good I guess.

I have read of some failures in Saab cars with this 2.8 as well as some of the Opels in Europe that had the identical 2.8.

I have read some like above putting it down to long oil change intervals, not sure of evidence for that. My car, before me, had some longish oil change intervals, which worries me a bit with 75,000 on the clock.

However, I think and hope that most of the time my car had Mobil 1 0w-40. Maybe in the past year or two it might have had dexos1. I wonder if the tough oil spec in 06-10 from Saab and GM Europe (before dexos), which called for oils like Mobil 1 0w-40 might have helped these models slightly. I will hope at least.

 

[robd]

Most of the failures were in engines with long oil change intervals.Fuel dilution is horrible in this engine with short trips combined with cold weather. Syn oil didn't seem to help only short changes. Been watching this unfold for years. It's a good engine but needs more frequent oil changes.

 

[Ayrton]

Originally Posted By: robd
Most of the failures were in engines with long oil change intervals.Fuel dilution is horrible in this engine with short trips combined with cold weather. Syn oil didn't seem to help only short changes. Been watching this unfold for years. It's a good engine but needs more frequent oil changes.


Wouldn't fuel dilution have only been that bad in the direct injected variants? There seems to have been a fair number of non-DI high feature GM V6 that had timing chain issues too.

Nevertheless, it's an excellent point.

 

[robd]

Fuel dilution and a bad batch of chains.

 

[RamAir5]

I had a 2009 Traverse and experienced the dreaded timing chain stretch. I treated that vehicle like a baby. I used QSUD since new, and changed it every 3500 miles. At 32,000 the Check Engine Light came on. The dealer diagnosed the problem as a stretched timing chain. 2 weeks later, the chain was replaced with, what the dealership called a new design. Well, at roughly 40,000 miles the CEL came on again! The chain stretched again, according to the dealer. It's not the oil, it's the POS design. Never again will I own a GM vehicle. I unloaded this SUV after the second repair. I was told that the oil delivery passages for the timing chain and tensioners are too small. It's a design flaw. GM is slapping a bandage on those things until the warrant is out and the owner has to fit the bill. The service manager said a timing chain would have to be replaced every so often for the life of the vehicle. Just my 2 cents.

 

[artificialist]

Sometimes a GDI engine has the high pressure pump operated by a cam lobe. That would increase the burden on the timing chain.

 

[Win]

I'm surprised I didn't see this thread before.

I have two HF V6 engines, one 2008 and one 2009.

Neither engine has been given any OLM recalibration.

Neither engine has, to my knowledge, received a warranty extension, for timing chain issues.

I routinely run my OLM's down to 5-6% which is about 8500 miles on the Torrent, longer on the G8. Oil consumption is negligible over those long intervals.

As the original purchaser of the cars, I have the window stickers designating engine country of origin - the HF V6 in the Torrent GXP originated in Japan (Suzuki?), and the HF V6 in the G8 came from the Fishermen's Bend factory in Australia.

In light of the ignition switch debacle, where we learned that they have no idea what switches are in what cars, it seems to me that the simplest explanation is the most likely - bad parts. Some supplier(s) put out bad chains, but they haven't a clue what engines they went in, but they know that the Australian and Japanese engines didn't get them.

Oil won't fix bad parts.

If someone has a Japanese or Australian built HF V6 that got an OLM recalibration, that would be a useful fact to know.

 

[SteveSRT8]

Originally Posted By: artificialist
Sometimes a GDI engine has the high pressure pump operated by a cam lobe. That would increase the burden on the timing chain.


Yes it would.

There is also a lot of speculation as to how these 'pulses' from operating cams affect the timing chain.

Of interest is in my 6.1 the major amount of TC failure is only with aftermarket camshafts. There is something in the transfer of resistance from the cam that definitely adversely affects TC life in this engine, and I suspect in others as well...

 

[ElastoHydro]

Originally Posted By: Win
.....
Oil won't fix bad parts.
.....


To some extent it will. In the High Feature GM v6 timing chain case here, it does look like the supplier might have not done surface hardening consistently/correctly, to be sure.

I think its reasonable to assume some kind of extra anti-wear oil tech out there might help. If something can help, its easy to do.

There are a lot of these V6's out there, and many have passed 100,000 miles without timiing chain problems.

 

[yvon_la]

if it existed big rig inline 6 wouldn't be using gear!

 

[crainholio]

Bringing this thread back, as my '07 Toyota 4Runner 4.0L project has a stretched timing chain (#1 chain tensioner plunger is extended nearly 3/4" versus ~1/4" common). I found a study presentation on the effects of zinc, moly, and other oil additives on timing chain wear, linked below for BITOG thoughts. ZDDP appears to be bad, moly appears good.

CAVEAT: Vanderbilt Chemicals, the publisher of the study, appears to be in the moly business.

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STLE_ORG...try%20Plays.pdf

 

[BrocLuno]

I think Chevron agrees with the moly recommendations on the subject of wear. Many BITOG'ers swear by high doses of moly too. I'd be looking there for anti wear, if it were my Toy

 

[SilverFusion2010]

Which brands include moly? I know a little seems to go a long way

 

[BrocLuno]

PQIA is your friend when comparing oils with different dose rates

 

[aquariuscsm]

Originally Posted By: SilverFusion2010
Which brands include moly? I know a little seems to go a long way


Pennzoil and Quaker State have the most moly of the otc oils.

 

[crainholio]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Pennzoil and Quaker State have the most moly of the otc oils.


The PQIA database is an excellent source of information. Thus far I've run two short OCIs on Shell Rotella T6 0W-40, both fills turned black in 800-1000 miles seeming to indicate the oil was busting sludge effectively. Changed the oil hot, with the vehicle's driver side lifted a bit to tilt the oil pan toward the drain plug and maximize drainage. I have an oil filter cutter on the way and will open the filters for examination.

Based on PQIA data and the article on moly's effectiveness in minimizing chain wear, the current fill is QSUD 5W-30 and I'll continue using QSUD over the Winter on relatively short OCIs. Good qty of moly as well as calcium detergent. My goal is to gradually clean out the engine a bit, so that if/when I do the timing chain replacement next Spring the exposure to sludge byproducts will be minimized.

I say if, because Toyota 1GR-FE junkyard engines are plentiful and fairly low-priced. Given the pain involved in opening the front of the engine in place, and the [censored] oil change history this one's had (Carfax and Toyota data), it may be more cost effective to swap in a better-maintained used engine than to replace the chain/sprockets/guides/seals. We'll see in the Spring.

 

[Festiva_Man]

I am working on one of these now. From what i am seeing the 3.6L seems to have crankcase ventilation problems and timing chain issues. Chain stretched on the one i am repairing now. Oil changes were done with synthetic every second time the olm came on. Olm comes on after 4 or 5k miles so these werent long oil intervals relative to other vehicles and yet it looks like the oil has been left for years, if i didnt know better i would say this engine had only been getting oil changes every 30k miles or something. I will try to post a few good photos. All tensioners are way out, one is all the way out and the chain still looks like it has an extra link in it. I would like to add to this discussion and try to figure out why this happens, i am trying to find how the chain is oiled, havent yet but its not all torn apart. Suggestions of where to look? It appears the valce cover area and timing chain areas do not see much oil flow like engines i am familiar with.
What do you guys want me to look for since i have this apart?
By the way, from what i see online this is a big issue, its not just a few here and there that get stretched chains. This one only has 200k km which is like 125k miles. The chains are common and the blowby is a common problem, its not normal to have to clean oil out of your intake tubing every 5k on a vehicle with 30k miles.
Chains are wearing bad on the sprockets, there is wear there unlike what people were saying earlier.