Oil Choice for Lowest Wear On Engine Timing Chain?
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4 lubrication regimes:
Hydrodynamic lubrication – two surfaces are separated by a fluid film
Elastohydrodynamic lubrication – two surfaces are separated by a very thin fluid film.
Mixed lubrication – two surfaces are partly separated, partly in contact.
Boundary lubrication – two surfaces mostly are in contact with each other even though a fluid is present.
How do sprocket/chain and camshaft differ? You need film strength combined with high/low temperature anti-wear and flow - everywhere. Do these engines have the same problem in other markets like Australia? Germany?
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
Hydrodynamic lubrication – two surfaces are separated by a fluid film
Elastohydrodynamic lubrication – two surfaces are separated by a very thin fluid film.
Mixed lubrication – two surfaces are partly separated, partly in contact.
Boundary lubrication – two surfaces mostly are in contact with each other even though a fluid is present.
How do sprocket/chain and camshaft differ? You need film strength combined with high/low temperature anti-wear and flow - everywhere. Do these engines have the same problem in other markets like Australia? Germany?
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
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Originally Posted By: Lex94
How do sprocket/chain and camshaft differ? You need film strength combined with high/low temperature anti-wear and flow - everywhere. Do these engines have the same problem in other markets like Australia? Germany?
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
Another poster in this forum thought the cam/follower interface was higher pressure, which might mean ZDDP won't work as well in a timing chain for anti-wear, since apparently ZDDP needs high mechanical pressure to work.... Yes, the High Feature V6 engine family has been experiencing higher than average timing chain failures in Europe and North America alike. This engine family started life back in 2003. Wikipedia has a GM HFv6 usage and history summary click here. Interesting history, and remember not all of the HFv6s have direct injection, and GM has modified the timing chain to have a harder carbonitrided surface after mid-2010, fully 7 years after it hit the market. .......Note the latest version of the HFV6 is a turbo 400 HP monster,
tough on oil, with direct injection.
How do sprocket/chain and camshaft differ? You need film strength combined with high/low temperature anti-wear and flow - everywhere. Do these engines have the same problem in other markets like Australia? Germany?
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
Another poster in this forum thought the cam/follower interface was higher pressure, which might mean ZDDP won't work as well in a timing chain for anti-wear, since apparently ZDDP needs high mechanical pressure to work.... Yes, the High Feature V6 engine family has been experiencing higher than average timing chain failures in Europe and North America alike. This engine family started life back in 2003. Wikipedia has a GM HFv6 usage and history summary click here. Interesting history, and remember not all of the HFv6s have direct injection, and GM has modified the timing chain to have a harder carbonitrided surface after mid-2010, fully 7 years after it hit the market. .......Note the latest version of the HFV6 is a turbo 400 HP monster,
tough on oil, with direct injection.
Originally Posted By: Lex94
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
... yes dexos1 came for the 2011 model year, and their wear performance is higher than SN/GF-5 alone, although I don't think they have a chain test yet, not sure. In fact, Lubrizol shows dexos1 wear performance on par with the tough MB 229.5 spec! (See Lubrizol Spider Tool )
Does the GM Dexos 1 spec have a timing chain wear limit test? The Dexos 1 spec was introduced after the HF V6...I think.
... yes dexos1 came for the 2011 model year, and their wear performance is higher than SN/GF-5 alone, although I don't think they have a chain test yet, not sure. In fact, Lubrizol shows dexos1 wear performance on par with the tough MB 229.5 spec! (See Lubrizol Spider Tool )
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Originally Posted By: jrustles
Garak said:.That would be a huge oversight of a most basic and critical design aspect, I would be shocked to think any automaker could develop a new engine series and overlook that!
And yet recent history shows that GM Opel, Nissan, and Mitsubishi all have had issues with inadequate flow caused by misdirected chain oil jets or too-small holes feeding the chain.
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
Whimsey
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
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Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
Yep, I think the GM High Feature V6 family might be susceptible to oil feed line clogging
getting oil to the chain. Looks like it could be the case anyway. Yes they upgraded the
chain material a full 7 years after the line first came out in 2003, yet it just looks like
GM is concerned about sludge clogging holes/lines/jets with their update to get everybody to change oil weekly.
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
Yep, I think the GM High Feature V6 family might be susceptible to oil feed line clogging
getting oil to the chain. Looks like it could be the case anyway. Yes they upgraded the
chain material a full 7 years after the line first came out in 2003, yet it just looks like
GM is concerned about sludge clogging holes/lines/jets with their update to get everybody to change oil weekly.
Originally Posted By: FetchFar
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
Yep, I think the GM High Feature V6 family might be susceptible to oil feed line clogging
getting oil to the chain. Looks like it could be the case anyway. Yes they upgraded the
chain material a full 7 years after the line first came out in 2003, yet it just looks like
GM is concerned about sludge clogging holes/lines/jets with their update to get everybody to change oil weekly.
From a standpoint of a non-professional, I see two issues. Lubricating the pin/link-plate interface, which prevents "stretch", and the sprocket/chain roller interface which prevents (primarily) sprocket wear. Lubing the sprocket interface is easy. lubing the pin interface requires a lubricant's heat seeking and penetrating capabilities. Having a section of the chain immersed in oil bath when the engine is off, is probably the best pin lubrication, it would seem. There is no way (that I can imagine) to pressure lubricate a pin effectively.
Originally Posted By: tig1
Originally Posted By: Whimsey
Maybe I missed it but does Ford have Lubrication issues on their Modular engine's long timing chains? My wife's 2005 4.6 is quiet and runs like new after over 145,000 miles. Does Ford lube theirs differently or is the DI and GM recommended OCI's causing the problem. Or as some say is the metallurgy of those GM timing at fault?
Whimsey
I put 218K on my 96 Merc GM doing 10K OCIs.. No more chain noise when I sold it than when new. A friend who worked at the local Ford dealer in parts, told me the biggest issue with chains on these engines was the oil ports for the guides would plug up if OCIs were too lond and sludge formed. As aways, my engine stayed clean and never had a problem.
Yep, I think the GM High Feature V6 family might be susceptible to oil feed line clogging
getting oil to the chain. Looks like it could be the case anyway. Yes they upgraded the
chain material a full 7 years after the line first came out in 2003, yet it just looks like
GM is concerned about sludge clogging holes/lines/jets with their update to get everybody to change oil weekly.
From a standpoint of a non-professional, I see two issues. Lubricating the pin/link-plate interface, which prevents "stretch", and the sprocket/chain roller interface which prevents (primarily) sprocket wear. Lubing the sprocket interface is easy. lubing the pin interface requires a lubricant's heat seeking and penetrating capabilities. Having a section of the chain immersed in oil bath when the engine is off, is probably the best pin lubrication, it would seem. There is no way (that I can imagine) to pressure lubricate a pin effectively.
Originally Posted By: akbrian
. Having a section of the chain immersed in oil bath when the engine is off, is probably the best pin lubrication, it would seem. There is no way (that I can imagine) to pressure lubricate a pin effectively.
Can't it just soak in there when oil is thrown on it, maybe capillary action? No pressure i understand, so the boron/zinc/moly antiwear additives must get in there I assume.
. Having a section of the chain immersed in oil bath when the engine is off, is probably the best pin lubrication, it would seem. There is no way (that I can imagine) to pressure lubricate a pin effectively.
Can't it just soak in there when oil is thrown on it, maybe capillary action? No pressure i understand, so the boron/zinc/moly antiwear additives must get in there I assume.
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Reserching the GM high-feature V6 makes you just want to get a 1968 VW Beetle with a low-feature boxer 4
MeThinks base oil cooking is the real problem in these engines. The lower quality oils do not provide adequate protection from the high heat generated by these heavy vehicles. I would think that any Dexos 1 certified oil off the upper end of 540RAT's list would be more than enough protection (Mobil 1 5W30). I would run a couple of short 1500 mile OCIs just to gently flush out any cooked oil.
MeThinks base oil cooking is the real problem in these engines. The lower quality oils do not provide adequate protection from the high heat generated by these heavy vehicles. I would think that any Dexos 1 certified oil off the upper end of 540RAT's list would be more than enough protection (Mobil 1 5W30). I would run a couple of short 1500 mile OCIs just to gently flush out any cooked oil.
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We have a 2007 Saturn Aura with that engine. 128k still going strong. 5k oci since new, mostly 10w30 PP. Will update in future.
Thinking of my 1968 SquareBack VW with the gear driven camshaft.
)
)Only car I had a timing chain failure on was a Saturn and that was because GM used plastic timing chain guides that rub down and become brittle with age, it's like they used the same plastic from their dashboards (known to cracking) inside the engine!!!
GM still uses that cheap ABS to this day in their engines.
Overall, you want to replace/check the timing chain tensioner and that is only if everything else inside the engine was engineered properly.
Case in point, my older nissan had a timing chain and it had 250k miles. I replaced the upper chain tensioner and it ran like new.
GM still uses that cheap ABS to this day in their engines.
Overall, you want to replace/check the timing chain tensioner and that is only if everything else inside the engine was engineered properly.
Case in point, my older nissan had a timing chain and it had 250k miles. I replaced the upper chain tensioner and it ran like new.
silk has posted pics here
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3188218&#Post3188218
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3188218&#Post3188218
Does anyone have any real data on actual failure rates? There are an awful lot of these running around with high mileage in a ton of different platforms.
All this huffing and puffing does is inflate the problem into a classic Internet amplification issue.
That pic sure doesn't say much. I have personally seen a bunch of Fords lately in my local shop with timing chain issues, and even the 6.1 community has an issue if the cam is changed out for more power.
No one has addressed the issue of cyclical vibration patterns in the chain due to valve events. This is HUGE in valvetrain design.
All this huffing and puffing does is inflate the problem into a classic Internet amplification issue.
That pic sure doesn't say much. I have personally seen a bunch of Fords lately in my local shop with timing chain issues, and even the 6.1 community has an issue if the cam is changed out for more power.
No one has addressed the issue of cyclical vibration patterns in the chain due to valve events. This is HUGE in valvetrain design.
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