Observation: M1 0W-40 In 5W-30 Application
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He lives in a fantasy land. I doubt that's going to change.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity
I think you are answering your own question. On a street car you are going to be in a better viscosity range overall with a thinner oil. We've discussed it before and it's my opinion that a thinner oil provides better ring lubrication. Others disagree. But I believe that is the assumption in saying a thinner oil will provide better lubrication.
My Mustang has the GC which I now believe to be too thick for a cruiser. But the only time it ever moves is when we go to the drive in movies or a trip to the cape or mountains all 100+ mile trips. I start it and let it idle for 30 minutes before we head down the road. It never moves in winter. I think a heavy oil is tenable in that kind of situation but for daily use you will spend a lot of time operating at less than operating temp with heavier than needed oil that tends not to have as good a distribution pattern in the cylinder.
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity
I think you are answering your own question. On a street car you are going to be in a better viscosity range overall with a thinner oil. We've discussed it before and it's my opinion that a thinner oil provides better ring lubrication. Others disagree. But I believe that is the assumption in saying a thinner oil will provide better lubrication.
My Mustang has the GC which I now believe to be too thick for a cruiser. But the only time it ever moves is when we go to the drive in movies or a trip to the cape or mountains all 100+ mile trips. I start it and let it idle for 30 minutes before we head down the road. It never moves in winter. I think a heavy oil is tenable in that kind of situation but for daily use you will spend a lot of time operating at less than operating temp with heavier than needed oil that tends not to have as good a distribution pattern in the cylinder.
Originally Posted By: buster
The additive package of the 0w40 is a lot different than the other M1 grades. So you're not just dealing with viscosity differences when you go from M1 SN 5w30 with a SA of .8 to M1 0w40 that uses their top of the line base oils and has higher levels of Ca, hence the SA of 1.2%.
Normally I would use a 5w30 in the Subaru 2.5, but my engine is older, so a 0w40 is ok and even allowed by the OEM. With Mobil 1 0w40 in particular, you're getting their best oil blend.
Quote:
It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions.
Features and Potential Benefits
Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with a precisely balanced component system.
Meets or exceeds the latest OEM and industry approvals
Is chosen for factory fill in many of the world’s finest vehicles
Provides excellent overall performance
Has excellent low temperature capabilities for rapid engine protection at start-up
Has enhanced frictional properties that aids fuel economy
Delivers fast protection for reduced engine wear and deposits even in the most extreme driving conditions
Provides exceptional cleaning power for dirty engines.
Man, this is tempting me to try this in an ecotec....
The additive package of the 0w40 is a lot different than the other M1 grades. So you're not just dealing with viscosity differences when you go from M1 SN 5w30 with a SA of .8 to M1 0w40 that uses their top of the line base oils and has higher levels of Ca, hence the SA of 1.2%.
Normally I would use a 5w30 in the Subaru 2.5, but my engine is older, so a 0w40 is ok and even allowed by the OEM. With Mobil 1 0w40 in particular, you're getting their best oil blend.
Quote:
It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions.
Features and Potential Benefits
Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with a precisely balanced component system.
Meets or exceeds the latest OEM and industry approvals
Is chosen for factory fill in many of the world’s finest vehicles
Provides excellent overall performance
Has excellent low temperature capabilities for rapid engine protection at start-up
Has enhanced frictional properties that aids fuel economy
Delivers fast protection for reduced engine wear and deposits even in the most extreme driving conditions
Provides exceptional cleaning power for dirty engines.
Man, this is tempting me to try this in an ecotec....
If you read his posts, you'll know that he bases his viscosity recommendations off of oil pressure and oil temperature. If the stock specified viscosity provides proper oil pressure, and the maximum oil temperature is not exceeded, he sees no reason to bump up viscosity. He doesn't buy into the notion that an oil also needs to fill up space. He figures if the oil pressure is up there where it should be, then the oil must be filling up space. His perspective is plausible and it makes sense, but I'm thinking there's other additional factors that need to be considered.
The best of all world is 50-50 mix of M1 0W40 with M1 EP 0W20 or M1 AFE 0W20 for engine spec'ed xW30 ?
Originally Posted By: HTSS_TR
The best of all world is 50-50 mix of M1 0W40 with M1 EP 0W20 or M1 AFE 0W20 for engine spec'ed xW30 ?
If you're into mixing and looking for a xW30, it seems like a good mix to me. As long as the additives play nice.
The best of all world is 50-50 mix of M1 0W40 with M1 EP 0W20 or M1 AFE 0W20 for engine spec'ed xW30 ?
If you're into mixing and looking for a xW30, it seems like a good mix to me. As long as the additives play nice.
Originally Posted By: daves87rs
Originally Posted By: buster
The additive package of the 0w40 is a lot different than the other M1 grades. So you're not just dealing with viscosity differences when you go from M1 SN 5w30 with a SA of .8 to M1 0w40 that uses their top of the line base oils and has higher levels of Ca, hence the SA of 1.2%.
Normally I would use a 5w30 in the Subaru 2.5, but my engine is older, so a 0w40 is ok and even allowed by the OEM. With Mobil 1 0w40 in particular, you're getting their best oil blend.
Quote:
It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions.
Features and Potential Benefits
Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with a precisely balanced component system.
Meets or exceeds the latest OEM and industry approvals
Is chosen for factory fill in many of the world’s finest vehicles
Provides excellent overall performance
Has excellent low temperature capabilities for rapid engine protection at start-up
Has enhanced frictional properties that aids fuel economy
Delivers fast protection for reduced engine wear and deposits even in the most extreme driving conditions
Provides exceptional cleaning power for dirty engines.
Man, this is tempting me to try this in an ecotec....
I am running it in our 2.0 Turbo DI 2011 Regal Ecotec. No real data, but I've not observed anything "bad" happening. With the turbo and DI, I wanted a more robust oil than a typical 5W-30 Dexos. The high TBN and HTHS is what made me move to M1 0W-40.
Originally Posted By: buster
The additive package of the 0w40 is a lot different than the other M1 grades. So you're not just dealing with viscosity differences when you go from M1 SN 5w30 with a SA of .8 to M1 0w40 that uses their top of the line base oils and has higher levels of Ca, hence the SA of 1.2%.
Normally I would use a 5w30 in the Subaru 2.5, but my engine is older, so a 0w40 is ok and even allowed by the OEM. With Mobil 1 0w40 in particular, you're getting their best oil blend.
Quote:
It provides exceptional cleaning power, wear protection and overall performance. Mobil 1 0W-40 keeps your engine running like new in all driving conditions.
Features and Potential Benefits
Mobil 1 0W-40 is made with a proprietary blend of ultra high performance synthetic basestocks fortified with a precisely balanced component system.
Meets or exceeds the latest OEM and industry approvals
Is chosen for factory fill in many of the world’s finest vehicles
Provides excellent overall performance
Has excellent low temperature capabilities for rapid engine protection at start-up
Has enhanced frictional properties that aids fuel economy
Delivers fast protection for reduced engine wear and deposits even in the most extreme driving conditions
Provides exceptional cleaning power for dirty engines.
Man, this is tempting me to try this in an ecotec....
I am running it in our 2.0 Turbo DI 2011 Regal Ecotec. No real data, but I've not observed anything "bad" happening. With the turbo and DI, I wanted a more robust oil than a typical 5W-30 Dexos. The high TBN and HTHS is what made me move to M1 0W-40.
OVERKILL
$100 Site Donor 2021
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity
I think you are answering your own question. On a street car you are going to be in a better viscosity range overall with a thinner oil. We've discussed it before and it's my opinion that a thinner oil provides better ring lubrication. Others disagree. But I believe that is the assumption in saying a thinner oil will provide better lubrication.
My Mustang has the GC which I now believe to be too thick for a cruiser. But the only time it ever moves is when we go to the drive in movies or a trip to the cape or mountains all 100+ mile trips. I start it and let it idle for 30 minutes before we head down the road. It never moves in winter. I think a heavy oil is tenable in that kind of situation but for daily use you will spend a lot of time operating at less than operating temp with heavier than needed oil that tends not to have as good a distribution pattern in the cylinder.
And you've noted that it is your opinion. I can respect that. However, he didn't state it was his opinion, it was stated as fact and I don't believe he has any way of proving that just because the 5w-30 has a slightly lower operating viscosity (and it is slightly lower, we aren't talking a huge difference here, like a 20C change in oil temp would cause) that it provides "better lubrication". Especially when compared to an oil that is generally regarded as being a better product in every way right down to having lower NOACK.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity
I think you are answering your own question. On a street car you are going to be in a better viscosity range overall with a thinner oil. We've discussed it before and it's my opinion that a thinner oil provides better ring lubrication. Others disagree. But I believe that is the assumption in saying a thinner oil will provide better lubrication.
My Mustang has the GC which I now believe to be too thick for a cruiser. But the only time it ever moves is when we go to the drive in movies or a trip to the cape or mountains all 100+ mile trips. I start it and let it idle for 30 minutes before we head down the road. It never moves in winter. I think a heavy oil is tenable in that kind of situation but for daily use you will spend a lot of time operating at less than operating temp with heavier than needed oil that tends not to have as good a distribution pattern in the cylinder.
And you've noted that it is your opinion. I can respect that. However, he didn't state it was his opinion, it was stated as fact and I don't believe he has any way of proving that just because the 5w-30 has a slightly lower operating viscosity (and it is slightly lower, we aren't talking a huge difference here, like a 20C change in oil temp would cause) that it provides "better lubrication". Especially when compared to an oil that is generally regarded as being a better product in every way right down to having lower NOACK.
Originally Posted By: OVERKILL
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You've answered your own question.
The specified M1 5W-30 is more appropriate for street use which is what we're talking about here.
More appropriate for an application based on daily driver oil temps and an imperceptible increase in fuel economy doesn't equal "better lubrication", which was what you stated. I don't believe I answered my own question at all. All I've done is identified GM's reasoning for recommending their "across the board" synthetic oil (M1 5w-30) in the ZR1. That doesn't mean it provides "better overall lubrication", if it did, they'd run it in GM's Corvette Program cars, but they don't, they run the 0w-40, likely because under all of the conditions encountered with THOSE cars, the 0w-40 DOES in fact provide "better overall lubrication". If it didn't, they wouldn't use it. Simple as that.
The 0w-40 has a more robust additive package, better longevity, better base stocks, and in general is just a better oil than the 5w-30. The only difference is that it is a bit heavier. I mean I guess it is easy to discount the insane amount of durability, wear control, deposit control....etc testing that it had to go through to gain the Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi....etc approvals, the fact that it is used in a myriad of actual race cars, used by factory race teams.....blah blah blah. And assume that because it is a few cSt heavier that it must provide "inferior" lubrication right?
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity and should provide slightly better fuel economy, sure. I think we can generally agree that your typical street car that spec's 5w-30 isn't going to see any sort of notable benefit from running an oil that is heavier than spec and likely, while being a bit heavier on additives, isn't going to provide any measurable increase in wear control over the spec lubricant. With those qualifiers noted I would argue that neither oil is going to, under these operating conditions, offer "better overall lubrication" than the other. Simply that the 5w-30 is more than adequate for the expected operating conditions and there is no real benefit to running the heavier-than-spec oil unless the operating conditions are somehow exceptional in a way that has not been described to us and that elevated oil temperatures have been observed.
Agree 100% with everything stated. Couldn't have said it better myself, and I've been in this very same discussion many times here before with "said individual".
For comparison and to help the OP confirm that his decision is definitely safe and not harmful, I've been using M1 0W40 for many years in my 2002 Chev Venture tow vehicle with the iron block 3.4 L V6. It has about 300,000 km on it right now, and runs perfectly. It's rusting like nobody's business, and may very well disintegrate before it stops running. When it's used (probably once every 2-3 weeks), it tows anywhere from 2000-4000 lbs without issue, and has had no mechanical issues with the engine (other than intake manifold gaskets many years ago - not due to oil obviously). Use the M1 0W40 with confidence. It's a good oil and a grade that truly works under almost all temperatures that can be encountered. It's not optimal in every situation, but it works.
Originally Posted By: CATERHAM
You've answered your own question.
The specified M1 5W-30 is more appropriate for street use which is what we're talking about here.
More appropriate for an application based on daily driver oil temps and an imperceptible increase in fuel economy doesn't equal "better lubrication", which was what you stated. I don't believe I answered my own question at all. All I've done is identified GM's reasoning for recommending their "across the board" synthetic oil (M1 5w-30) in the ZR1. That doesn't mean it provides "better overall lubrication", if it did, they'd run it in GM's Corvette Program cars, but they don't, they run the 0w-40, likely because under all of the conditions encountered with THOSE cars, the 0w-40 DOES in fact provide "better overall lubrication". If it didn't, they wouldn't use it. Simple as that.
The 0w-40 has a more robust additive package, better longevity, better base stocks, and in general is just a better oil than the 5w-30. The only difference is that it is a bit heavier. I mean I guess it is easy to discount the insane amount of durability, wear control, deposit control....etc testing that it had to go through to gain the Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi....etc approvals, the fact that it is used in a myriad of actual race cars, used by factory race teams.....blah blah blah. And assume that because it is a few cSt heavier that it must provide "inferior" lubrication right?
I don't see how it is possible for you to legitimately back-up the statement "better overall lubrication" here. Perhaps if you had said that the 5w-30 was more appropriate based on oil temps observed in your average street car and that the 5w-30 offers a more appropriate operating viscosity and should provide slightly better fuel economy, sure. I think we can generally agree that your typical street car that spec's 5w-30 isn't going to see any sort of notable benefit from running an oil that is heavier than spec and likely, while being a bit heavier on additives, isn't going to provide any measurable increase in wear control over the spec lubricant. With those qualifiers noted I would argue that neither oil is going to, under these operating conditions, offer "better overall lubrication" than the other. Simply that the 5w-30 is more than adequate for the expected operating conditions and there is no real benefit to running the heavier-than-spec oil unless the operating conditions are somehow exceptional in a way that has not been described to us and that elevated oil temperatures have been observed.
Agree 100% with everything stated. Couldn't have said it better myself, and I've been in this very same discussion many times here before with "said individual".
For comparison and to help the OP confirm that his decision is definitely safe and not harmful, I've been using M1 0W40 for many years in my 2002 Chev Venture tow vehicle with the iron block 3.4 L V6. It has about 300,000 km on it right now, and runs perfectly. It's rusting like nobody's business, and may very well disintegrate before it stops running. When it's used (probably once every 2-3 weeks), it tows anywhere from 2000-4000 lbs without issue, and has had no mechanical issues with the engine (other than intake manifold gaskets many years ago - not due to oil obviously). Use the M1 0W40 with confidence. It's a good oil and a grade that truly works under almost all temperatures that can be encountered. It's not optimal in every situation, but it works.
I use 0w40 in the turbo engine and 5w30 in the SC engine. Both are the same block with short timing chains and old school pushrod engines with roller valve train.
Nothing really there to beat the oil up except for the turbo.
IMO the 0w40 provides better lubrication at high temps in this engine because of the extreme heat the large single turbo generates.
On the other hand i don't think it would necessarily provide "better" lubrication in the other engine than the 5w30, the oil isn't getting abused, pressure is fine and temps are low.
IMO GM has it right with 5w30 for most daily drivers but there are circumstance where the 0w40 may perform better.
Tailoring the oil to the engine mods, higher than normal temps or extreme conditions is a trick i don't know enough about to carry on a conversion about but 0w40 seems to be a safe bet when in doubt.
and $2 gets me coffee.
Nothing really there to beat the oil up except for the turbo.
IMO the 0w40 provides better lubrication at high temps in this engine because of the extreme heat the large single turbo generates.
On the other hand i don't think it would necessarily provide "better" lubrication in the other engine than the 5w30, the oil isn't getting abused, pressure is fine and temps are low.
IMO GM has it right with 5w30 for most daily drivers but there are circumstance where the 0w40 may perform better.
Tailoring the oil to the engine mods, higher than normal temps or extreme conditions is a trick i don't know enough about to carry on a conversion about but 0w40 seems to be a safe bet when in doubt.
I just changed my LX470 with 5Qt M10W40 and 2Qt Napa 0W20. So far runs very well. The oil pressure is above 1/2 indicator at high engine RPM. I will run this mix for the summer camping season because there would be a more mountain ascending which will add more stress on the engine. After 10k and probably around Dec, I will switch back to my SM version of PU 5W30 for clearing cycle till next spring. Then I would use M1 0W40 and whatever 0W20 mix again.
Originally Posted By: Trav
I remember in the early 70's some 10w30 was even hard to pour out of the can in winter, some didn't flow and blew a lot of engines if they were unfortunate enough to get it running.
Heck, when I had my oil burning LTD back in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I had enough problems topping up 5w-30 when it was -40.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not ? Maybe the 40 weight is lubricating better thus reducing friction.
That kind of fuel mileage difference cannot even plausibly be credited to going from a 30 or a 40, or vice versa.
I remember in the early 70's some 10w30 was even hard to pour out of the can in winter, some didn't flow and blew a lot of engines if they were unfortunate enough to get it running.
Heck, when I had my oil burning LTD back in the late 1980s/early 1990s, I had enough problems topping up 5w-30 when it was -40.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not ? Maybe the 40 weight is lubricating better thus reducing friction.
That kind of fuel mileage difference cannot even plausibly be credited to going from a 30 or a 40, or vice versa.
Originally Posted By: Garak
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not ? Maybe the 40 weight is lubricating better thus reducing friction.
That kind of fuel mileage difference cannot even plausibly be credited to going from a 30 or a 40, or vice versa.
I'm thinking you guys are being w a a a y too pessimistic is what I'm thinking.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
Why not ? Maybe the 40 weight is lubricating better thus reducing friction.
That kind of fuel mileage difference cannot even plausibly be credited to going from a 30 or a 40, or vice versa.
I'm thinking you guys are being w a a a y too pessimistic is what I'm thinking.
Originally Posted By: Merkava_4
I'm thinking you guys are being w a a a y too pessimistic is what I'm thinking.
And you're engaging in wishful thinking.
Demonstrate that kind of fuel economy switch, in either direction, in a mathematically rigorous fashion.
I'm thinking you guys are being w a a a y too pessimistic is what I'm thinking.
And you're engaging in wishful thinking.
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