Nulon Oil containing Alkylated Naphthalene base.

[JFAllen]

Product Page Hello Oil Faithful, This one is from Australia, one of our more prominent oil blenders here has just began to offer a new 'racing oil' using a blend of PAO Group-IV and Alkylated Naphthalene (AN) Group-V base stock. If you're not familiar with AN you can read a good article here. Searching your search engine of choice also turns up a great wealth of information While not 100% you'd have to consider that Nulon is purchasing AN from Exxon-Mobil, although there are other suppliers, given Exxon's plase in the PAO market it's likely they have a supply agreement for these premium products. Unfortunately these products are so new that they haven't hit retail yet, and there Product Bulletin is conspicuously lacking in critical detail. I'll likely get a VOA done once these hit store shelves and share the results. Also it appears that they have decided no not even bother qualifying these new oils with even basic API/JASO/ACEA certification. (Even though they are 'racing oils.') I guess I'm asking has anyone had experience with Alkylated Naphthalene based oils. This is most certain the first time they have been seen on Australian shelves for automotive use. Group-V is mostly considered Esters (as well as Polyalkylene Glycol PAG,) but as we all should be aware, Group-V is simply oils that are not Groups I->IV, Esters just being the most commonly used in automotive applications. Regards Jordan

 

[SR5]

Wow thanks for the heads-up Jordan. I've never seen that Nulon product before, I'll keep an eye out for it. Looks to me like a Aussie product going toe-to-toe with the Penrite 10-Tenths Racing series (PAO and Ester).

 

[JFAllen]

I tend to agree with you comments regarding placing it as a direct competitor for Penrite 10/10th. Having a look around their web page, it looks like it may have only gone live in the last couple of days. will take a little while for it to make it to retail. Regards Jordan

 

[SonofJoe]

Hmmm... Generally I'd only consider putting AN in an engine oil if I had a major problem with additive solubility. A lot of the early Shell work on GTL base stock used AN exactly for that reason (although some of their later patents tended to suggest that they didn't need it quite as much as they first thought). Reading the article, if sounds like AN is something you might more realistically need for military jet engines. As far as I recall neither the API nor ACEA test oils for their 'radiation stability'!

 

[pbm]

IIRC, AN was one of the (3) fluids used in Mobil's Trisynthethic version of M1.....which wasn't one of the better versions of that product.

 

[LoneRanger]

Originally Posted By: pbm

IIRC, AN was one of the (3) fluids used in Mobil's Trisynthethic version of M1.....which wasn't one of the better versions of that product.

Believe they still use AN in their Mobil 1 Racing 4T motorcycle oil, as the additive pkg solubility carrier. Overall their Mobil 1 Racing 4T is believed to be a blend of Group III+/IV/V (VISOM/PolyAlphaOlefin/AN). AN is an aromatic and you can smell it when you whiff a bottle of M1 Racing 4T.

 

[SR5]

When I looked at the MSDS for Penrite 10-Tenths Racing (100% , PAO & Ester ) a few months ago, it appeared to be mostly PAO with a minor amount of Ester. It will be interesting to see how much AN is in the Nulon and is it a majority PAO based oil like the Penrite. Maybe both companies are using the Group V oils to help with add pack solubility, metal surface wetting, etc with the PAO doing most of the general oil duties. I'm no blender, but a big splash of Group 1 should be able to perform most of those Group V duties, except for two issues. The Group V is more thermally stable and resistant to oxidation, plus the Group V is way cooler to put on your front label. I've never had a product advertised in my life, but I always assumed it would be cheaper to put a splash of Group V in your premium oil and proudly claim the truth, to get market attention that way. Rather than hire an advertising company to design an ad campaign and push you product the more traditional way. I'm sure a barrel of Group V costs less than a minute of prime time TV commercial space. Not saying any of that to distract from the products, just pointing out that a splash of the exotic stuff may be expensive to put in the oil, but it could still make good economic sense to the companies involved. Penrite has a big footprint in the Australian performance oil market and if the other Aussie oil company want a slice of that pie then they need to meet them head on. I'm very happy that two local Australian companies can offer me full Group IV and Group V high performance oil, and if they match Penrite on price, they will both be cheaper for me to buy than regular M1.

 

[Silk]

I like the black can - that should sell here, patriotism and all that.

 

[Gokhan]

Very interesting! Moly DTC tends to refer to trinuclear moly. Alkylated naphthalene is the wonder base stock that you rarely see. It has the magic property of extreme oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient) and therefore decreases wear greatly when blended with other base stocks. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.512.1636&rep=rep1&type=pdf It sounds like the ingredients are from ExxonMobil.

 

[JFAllen]

Thank all for your responses For members not from Australia, let it be known we pay 'highway robbery' prices for quality oils here. Mobil-1 0W40 = $104AUD. Penrite has hit the premium performance market hard, where it's PAO/Ester 10/10th premium range can be found in he $60AUD range (in 0W40.) Helix ultra is also often +$80AUD. (all prices for 5L.) Don't even get started on LiquiMoly/Royal Purple/Redline... As another member stated, I hope Nulon, go in hard on price and if the TBN numbers are good, there's no real reason not to trust this oil in a street driven performnace application. If it's low TBN 'Race Oil,' then well, it's a harder sale. Time will tell. Again thanks for your input. Regards Jordan

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Very interesting! Moly DTC tends to refer to trinuclear moly.

Really ??? ummm...no it doesn't.

 

[Shannow]

Jordan, the Repco 0W40 is also a Penrite product. It's a killer price compared to M1, isn't it ?

 

[Brad_C]

I still associate Nulon with the PTFE snake oil they used to (actually still do) sell and Penrite lost me with their "extra ten technology". I suppose they both have some credible oil in there somewhere though.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Very interesting! Moly DTC tends to refer to trinuclear moly.

Really ??? ummm...no it doesn't.

Check the ExxonMobil patents and presentations.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Check the ExxonMobil patents and presentations.

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Shannow

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Check the ExxonMobil patents and presentations.

?

 

[Shannow]

So ExxonMobil patented a trinuclear form of MoDTC, the regular (non trimer) has been around for quite some time... and therefore Nulon's use ofMoDTC is the use of trinuclear. That's what I'm laughing at...

 

[Gokhan]

I know what moly DTC is. It's one of many organic moly compounds out there. I didn't say that it's trinuclear moly. I said it "tends to refer to" trinuclear moly. From the trinuclear-moly patent: 'Preferred ligands include dialkyldithiophosphate ("ddp"), xanthates, thioxanthates, dialkylphosphate, dialkyldithiocarbamate ("dtc"), and carboxylate and of these the dtc is more preferred.' Just do a Google search for Moly DTC. Most results will be ExxonMobil's trinuclear-moly patents and other trinuclear-moly reference. It's obvious that these guys are using ExxonMobil base stocks and additives.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

I know what moly DTC is. It's one of many organic moly compounds out there. I didn't say that it's trinuclear moly. I said it "tends to refer to" trinuclear moly.

How ??? What is it that "tends" to suggest that it's not any of the other MODTC that anyone else uses.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

It's obvious that these guys are using ExxonMobil base stocks and additives.

OK, did they or ExxonMobil break their NDA's and tell you that directly ?

 

[SonofJoe]

Gokhan Might you be getting confused by patent-ese? 'Preferred' in a patent is a way of narrowing down a claim. It doesn't have any commercial relevance to market choices. From at quick scoot around Google it looks to me that MoDTC has been around since the mid-60s with RT Vanderbilt leading the way (met them once, very nice people). At some point the Japanese outfit Asahi Denko (met them too, preferred RTV) got in on the act and established a decent patent position. Between the two, they had a virtual stranglehold on Moly in lubricants; something that was not at all popular particularly with the major AddCo's as it forced them to buy in something they didn't themselves make at huge cost. And even if, as an AddCo, you did buy it, there was a still a sense of fear that you still might get sued if you used it in a pack. I can speak from experience that there was a great deal of anti-Moly prejudice around at one time. 'It turns oil your black!' was expressed to me more than once by people in the US that frankly should have known better. One of the things I am most proud of as I look back, is how I broke that in-house prejudice and made Moly respectable. I can still remember the first time I heard about Tri-Nuclear Moly. It was shortly after Paramins (Exxon's AddCo) had merged with Shell to form Infineum. One of my customers had recently had a visit from the newly merged company and they said how bizarre the meeting had been. They had asked for a proposal for an oil program they wanted to run but what they got instead was two proposals pitched by two teams (all in the same room); one 100% Paramins, the other 100% Shell. Not unreasonably my customer said why don't you take the best bits from both companies and give us just one offer; maybe say a high treat of Tri-nuclear Moly and put it with Shellvis VII? At which point the Paramins guys went all wobbly & spluttered out various reasons why this was impossible. Apparently this was because TNM is hopelessly expensive to make!! Having just had a look at the original patents, I can see why. Yes it is a variant on the dithio-carbamate theme but when I see chemicals I've never heard of whose names I can't pronounce, you know you're dealing with exotics which are going to break the bank. I dare say Infineum sell a lot of this to ExxonMobil (they're a bit stupid that way) but to others....hmmmm...I'm not so sure. For what it's worth, I think your confidence in TNM is a bit misplaced. I only say that because for a while, I had to breathe the same air with someone who claimed to be one of the prime movers and shakers behind the development of TNM (it was his 'greatest achievement' or so he said). Anyway, said person was truly dead from the neck up, intellectually stunted and a complete knob. If he said something, I would always assume the complete opposite to be true.