alkylated naphthalene base oil or co-base oil in PCMO?

[sloinker]

Was watching a chemist that specializes in lubricant's on you tube. Seems the guy knows what he is talking about and much of the chemistry involved flew right over my head. Anyway's, he made the statement that he felt that PCMO's with alkylated naphthalene as a base or co-base oil were the pinnacle for performance versus the predominant base oil Mineral groups and up to and including PAO's and Group V esters.
Over the years on this site and seeing some supporting formula literature from product data sheets and Safety data sheets, I have seen alkylated naphthalene as a small percentage by volume in a few motor oils. Maybe I misunderstood him but it sounds like he was talking predominately
the use of alkylated naphthalene as the majority of the base, co-base in motor oil. Is there such a creature? Which widely available motor oils contain a large percentage of alkylated naphthalene?

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

With regards to PCMO applications from what I've read AN's perform extremely well at amounts which are significant less than what would otherwise be required with esters. Perhaps an AN base would be possible for other applications like compressor oils or whatever.

 

[Overfill]

Its the use as a co-base, in practice. There aren't many products that are guaranteed to have this because of ANs cost and the benchmark to produce a blend that meets the market goals. What I mean is, it is usually something that does provide a standout cleanliness enhancement, but is unnecessary to meet certifications/specifications. We've surmised that Mobil uses small amounts of it in some product lines, and know they used it in past formulations. Because it is tough to detect from a finished blend (or requires a lengthy analysis,) we don't know other products that use it with certainty. HPL has said that they use it in their products, and posts demonstrating the behavior of the oil in service back that up.

 

[OVERKILL]

AN's have low VI's, so you don't use them as a primary base. They are additive, you use them in a quantity that is complimentary to the rest of the blend, to get the strengths (cleanliness, high solvency) without killing the cold temp performance.

Mobil's "Tri-Syn" Mobil 1 formula was PAO/AN/Ester and probably the first high volume commercial use of them. HPL's oils are blended with both esters and AN's at an optimum balance to capitalize on the strengths of the components, while canceling out the weaknesses.

 

[MolaKule]

Was watching a chemist that specializes in lubricant's on you tube. Seems the guy knows what he is talking about and much of the chemistry involved flew right over my head. Anyway's, he made the statement that he felt that PCMO's with alkylated naphthalene as a base or co-base oil were the pinnacle for performance versus the predominant base oil Mineral groups and up to and including PAO's and Group V esters.
Over the years on this site and seeing some supporting formula literature from product data sheets and Safety data sheets, I have seen alkylated naphthalene as a small percentage by volume in a few motor oils. Maybe I misunderstood him but it sounds like he was talking predominately
the use of alkylated naphthalene as the majority of the base, co-base in motor oil. Is there such a creature? Which widely available motor oils contain a large percentage of alkylated naphthalene?

There is no such creature. AN's are co-bases in finished lubricants.
Since formulas are IP, we don't know.

 

[sloinker]

There is no such creature. AN's are co-bases in finished lubricants.
Since formulas are IP, we don't know.

Maybe I misunderstood his point. Here is the video I watched.

 

[buster]

Undisputed King of Base Oils?

Interesting discussion on AN's.

bobistheoilguy.com

 

[Plumb Bob]

Cabernet Sauvignon is the "Undisputed King" of grape varietals, ... same with AN's.

 

[Astro_Guy]

Cabernet Sauvignon is the "Undisputed King" of grape varietals, ... same with AN's.



View attachment 230929

View attachment 230930

Petrus is a Merlot...

 

[Tom NJ]

Bordeaux wine, usually but not always a blend of Cabernet with Merlot and other varieties, is considered the Queen of Wine. Red Burgundy, usually just Pinot Noir, is considered the King of Wines. I agree Petrus is Merlot, but I dispute that ANs are the "Undisputed King of Base Oils"

 

[440_Magnum]

Was watching a chemist that specializes in lubricant's on you tube. Seems the guy knows what he is talking about and much of the chemistry involved flew right over my head. Anyway's, he made the statement that he felt that PCMO's with alkylated naphthalene as a base or co-base oil were the pinnacle for performance versus the predominant base oil Mineral groups and up to and including PAO's and Group V esters.
Over the years on this site and seeing some supporting formula literature from product data sheets and Safety data sheets, I have seen alkylated naphthalene as a small percentage by volume in a few motor oils. Maybe I misunderstood him but it sounds like he was talking predominately
the use of alkylated naphthalene as the majority of the base, co-base in motor oil. Is there such a creature? Which widely available motor oils contain a large percentage of alkylated naphthalene?

Not sure who you were watching, but I just watched Lake Speed’s latest video (on 0w40 oils). He mentioned that the newest M1 0w40 European car formula seems to have reduced esters compared to the SN version (which he claims is identifiable by a particular peak on an FTIR scan, and my PhD chemist daughter confirms should be a VERY accurate way of detecting esters in particular). His hypothesis is that they’re substituting alkylated napthalenes for the esters (note that ANs would not have a clearly identifiable peak on an FTIR). He’s been on a kick lately of noting that the SP oils seem to generally be reducing the concentration of polar components that could potentially compete with anti-wear additives, thus effectively getting more real-world anti-wear performance from a smaller “dose” of anti-wear additives like ZDDP. The reduction in calcium and trading it for magnesium which, while primarily targeting LSPI, plays into this because magnesium also competes less with AW additives. (My paraphrasing, and unlike my daughter I’m a hairy-knuckled engineer and no chemist!). But as others have said… ANs are at best a co-base or even could be considered an “additive,” and wouldn’t be a primary base oil.

 

[sloinker]

I don't disagree with any of the opinions voiced here, including the original video I referenced. I don't know, thus the question. I am generally interested if anyone has knowledge of a AN oil with a fairly large composition of said AN available to the consumer? I do remember seeing MSDS and product sheets over the years that did identify some percentage of AN's in the mix. It seems that today these mixtures are closely guarded secrets from the oil companies and a lack of any specific information is the rule. I saw a SDS recently that specified the PAO content from 5%-50%, heavy paraffinic from 50-80% and other ingredients up to 30%. In total the listed ingredients totaled 70-200% by volume. That's quite the range.

 

[MolaKule]

...I am generally interested if anyone has knowledge of a AN oil with a fairly large composition of said AN available to the consumer? I do remember seeing MSDS and product sheets over the years that did identify some percentage of AN's in the mix.

If you mean any oil with a large or majority percentage of AN composition, no, because it would not be advantageous to the finished product. Each base oil type contributes certain performance advantanges to the overall formulation and too much of any one base oil could spoil the pot.

And again remember, an SDS is an ambgious description in terms of IP materials and even the base oils are given large percentage ranges so the overall formula would be difficult to duplicate. An SDS only describes components that may be toxic or dangerous under certain conditions.