Oils that have Group V alkylated naphthalene (AN) according to Oil-Club Russia

Gokhan

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Originally Posted by aquariuscsm
That Valvoline stuff sounds like a serious motor oil! I don't think I've ever seen it before.
Yes, Valvoline Premium Blue Restore uses the same CK-4 additive package in regular Valvoline Premium Blue but with a base oil composed of 62.5% POE, 25.0% PAO, and 12.5% AN. It's meant to be used for a single 5,000-mile OCI every 100,000 miles in HDEO engines to clean the piston-ring carbon deposits as maintenance to restore horsepower and fuel economy.
Originally Posted by nascarnation
Is this sort of the Russia version of BITOG?
Yes, it is. They are especially good at figuring out the base stocks and additives (such as the type and brand of the moly used) using FTIR.
Originally Posted by MolaKule
But oxidation numbers aren't always indicative of base oil esters by volume or percentage since many additives have oxygen linkages. Many additive components are also esterified so trying to determine the amount of say, Esterex TMP ester(s) would be rather difficult without additional C-NMR or H-NMR analysis.
Absolutely. However, the amount of ester-like additives are below 1% and they don't increase the oxidation number much. You can consider it as an upper bound on the ester base oil used. I also give an approximate range, for example, about 5 - 7% POE for Euro Mobil 1 oils (FS and ESP) according to the FTIR oxidation numbers around 35%. Non-Euro Mobil 1 oils have oxidation numbers less than 10%, which is not different than for other oils. (Earlier, I remembered the numbers incorrectly and stated them erroneously as 5 - 15%. The actual ester percentage in M1 FS and ESP should be around 5 - 7%.)
Originally Posted by buster
Thanks for sharing this Gokhan. I need to read up on AN's a bit more. I've been reading articles here and there on them. I'm not sure how much of what XOM is saying about AN's offering better performance than POE's is true or not. Based on what XOM is showing, AN's offer great performance attributes. I know the ESP line and 0w40FS/ESP are probably their top tier oils, overall. I've always found it interesting that the PDS for the 0w40 stated exceptional cleaning power and good for cleaning dirty engines. I assume this is due to the POE in the oil.
I think you may be right that in their Euro formulations, they are prioritizing cleaning, probably because of the TDI diesel-engine tests. From what I've read, POE is one of the most expensive base stocks and given that it fights other additives to increase wear and reduce fuel economy and it's not as effective in fighting oil oxidation as the AN, why bother with it and not use AN instead unless cleaning is the top priority?
Originally Posted by JAG
I wish we could hear from XOM's formulators why a few Mobil 1 oils use a small but significant amount of ester when they have so frequently made documents like Gokhan displayed above, singing the praises of AN completely at the expense of esters. What I mean is that if ANs are that superior to esters according to them, why do a few of their oils use them? XOM has been making documents like that for many many years. I recollect them to have started making such documents in the early 2000s.
Just as I replied to buster, I think their Euro oils (FS and ESP) may be prioritizing TDI diesel-engine cleaning over wear protection, fuel economy, and oxidation stability. Interestingly, the PAO-based Amsoil Signature Series has a lot of POE ester -- around 10 - 15% -- but no AN. The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
 

OVERKILL

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
I know they make no mention of it, and they seem quite liberal in divulging their base oils as part of their product information shrug Did you see my update in the VOA thread? It appears they changed formulas on the 0w-40.
 
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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Gokhan
The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
I know they make no mention of it, and they seem quite liberal in divulging their base oils as part of their product information shrug Did you see my update in the VOA thread? It appears they changed formulas on the 0w-40.
The Ravenol CleanSynto products contain esters according to their own advertising.
 
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Originally Posted by Gokhan
The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
It may not seem to have any esters/POE in it, but they DO claim to use some in their base stocks (along with PAOs), on their 'USVO'/'Clean Synto' grade/level oils (like the 5W-30 DXG, and their 0W-20 DFE). wink Their racing REP 5W-30 does not claim to use any in the site text, but I believe they use some in that oil as well. Of course, since you take that Russkie site's speculations, 'proofs', and opinions as all but gospel, you probably do not believe anything which Ravenol claims, as a company, correct?
 

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Originally Posted by dailydriver
Originally Posted by Gokhan
The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
It may not seem to have any esters/POE in it, but they DO claim to use some in their base stocks (along with PAOs), on their 'USVO'/'Clean Synto' grade/level oils (like the 5W-30 DXG, and their 0W-20 DFE). wink Their racing REP 5W-30 does not claim to use any in the site text, but I believe they use some in that oil as well. Of course, since you take that Russkie site's speculations, 'proofs', and opinions as all but gospel, you probably do not believe anything which Ravenol claims, as a company, correct?
You are taking one statement I made and turning it into something I've never said. Moreover, you go further and draw ridiculous conclusions about how I see Ravenol as a company and the Russian oil site. There are many flavors of Ravenol. Where did I say that no Ravenol has esters? I know about the DXG. I only looked up a handful of them tested by the Russians, and they didn't have esters or AN. If Ravenol says a certain flavor has esters, it does have esters and you can determine approximately how much by looking at the FTIR oxidation if there is data.
 

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Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Gokhan
The PAO-based Ravenol doesn't seem to have any POE ester or AN.
I know they make no mention of it, and they seem quite liberal in divulging their base oils as part of their product information shrug Did you see my update in the VOA thread? It appears they changed formulas on the 0w-40.
The Ravenol CleanSynto products contain esters according to their own advertising.
Some of them do. The 0w-40 does not, according to the product page where it makes no mention of it.
 

Gokhan

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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Some of them do. The 0w-40 does not, according to the product page where it makes no mention of it.
Exactly. Ravenol is very open about their base stocks and even their additives. If they don't say esters, it's unlikely that it has esters, and if they say esters, then it has esters. You can look at the FTIR oxidation data if it's available to determine the approximate ester content. Likewise, you can see if the AN is there if the FTIR spectrum is available.
 

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Some of them do. The 0w-40 does not, according to the product page where it makes no mention of it.
Exactly. Ravenol is very open about their base stocks and even their additives. If they don't say esters, it's unlikely that it has esters, and if they say esters, then it has esters. You can look at the FTIR oxidation data if it's available to determine the approximate ester content. Likewise, you can see if the AN is there if the FTIR spectrum is available.
That ties into my VOA thread. I think the version the Ruskies tested was the old version. I provided some data there, after other info was posted.
 
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It should be mentioned that Ravenol and the Russia oil site have not hit along at all and a lot of friction exists between them. It has been discussed in other threads.
 

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Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That ties into my VOA thread. I think the version the Ruskies tested was the old version. I provided some data there, after other info was posted.
I just saw your VOA thread. It's a good thread. It looks like the esters went away in the new formulation of the Ravenol 0W-40.
 

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Originally Posted by Gokhan
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
That ties into my VOA thread. I think the version the Ruskies tested was the old version. I provided some data there, after other info was posted.
I just saw your VOA thread. It's a good thread. It looks like the esters went away in the new formulation of the Ravenol 0W-40.
I believe so. I also question as to whether they are using AN's or not shrug We don't really know, and I don't believe anyone has run an FTIR on the current version.
 

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I keep reposting this great article. It's about lubricity and solubility and how to improve them for "dry oils" such as PAO: https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...-oil-quality-index-a-ranking#Post4485179 An oil may use an ester-based lubricity improver but since it's in a small amount, the FTIR oxidation would stay below 10%. Organic friction modifiers (OFM) also do a good job in improving the lubricity. The aforementioned article gives many details.
 

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Incidentally, the oxidation number Wear Check got for the TGMO 0W-20 SN sample I sent them in 2014 came out to be 68%. Does that mean that this formulation of the TGMO 0W-20 SN had 8 - 12% ester, similar to Amsoil Signature Series and only second to Red Line High-Performance? It would be remarkable if it did and it wasn't an artifact of Wear Check's FTIR algorithm.
 
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Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by irekm
No Trabants In Russia, wrong country
Wealthy Stalinist's would import them from East Germany to impress their friends.
Didn't the Wall come down last year? Wait - I just recently awoke from a coma, dating back to Nov 91'.... sorry!
smile its a funny movie: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/
 
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Originally Posted by Kamele0N
Originally Posted by Triple_Se7en
Originally Posted by sloinker
Originally Posted by irekm
No Trabants In Russia, wrong country
Wealthy Stalinist's would import them from East Germany to impress their friends.
Didn't the Wall come down last year? Wait - I just recently awoke from a coma, dating back to Nov 91'.... sorry!
smile its a funny movie: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0301357/
I will look for it. Funny premise.
 
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