Nulon Oil containing Alkylated Naphthalene base.

[Gokhan]

Trinuclear moly is neither hard nor expensive to make. The lowly Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CJ-4 advertised to have it. Mobil  Delvac  1300  Super  10W30  and  15W40  are  formulated  with  a)  optimized  baseoil  technology  containing  severely hydroprocessed  base  stocks,  b)  patented  Trimer*  additive  technology  and  c)  a  mixed  detergent  system  to  deliver  cutting edge  performance  in  both  new  and  older  engines.    In  addition  to  assuring  excellent  control  of  oil  thickening  due  to  soot  build up  and  outstanding  TBN  retention  for  long  drain  intervals,  Mobil  Delvac  1300  Super's  advanced  technology  also  provides outstanding  resistance  to  oil  consumption,  oxidation,  corrosive  and  abrasive  wear,  and  high  temperature  deposits. *Trimer  additive  technology  is  a  patented  additive  technology  that  imparts  outstanding  wear  performance,  effective  oxidation  resistance  and  improved  frictional  properties  while contributing  little  to  the  overall  ash  content  enabling  Mobil  Delvac  1300  Super  to  deliver  performance  beyond  the  boundaries  of industry  requirements  of API CJ4. Infineum refers to "DTC" when they advertise trinuclear moly. The other companies don't seem to put emphasis on that. That's why I said this could be trinuclear moly. Also, don't forget that DTC is only one of many kinds of organic moly, trinuclear or not.

 

[SonofJoe]

Gokhan, Do you work in The Industry; possibly Oronite given your location??? Infineum itself maybe? (although I think that's unlikely given what you've been saying).

 

[BobFout]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Trinuclear moly is neither hard nor expensive to make. The lowly Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CJ-4 advertised to have it...snip

It's only one of the top HDEOs in the world. Nothing 'lowly' about Delvac 1300.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Infineum refers to "DTC" when they advertise trinuclear moly. The other companies don't seem to put emphasis on that. That's why I said this could be trinuclear moly. Also, don't forget that DTC is only one of many kinds of organic moly, trinuclear or not.

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Very interesting! Moly DTC tends to refer to trinuclear moly.

Industry and BITOG have been using MoDTC terminology for years...it's got SFA to do with trinuclear... Google search on MoDTC

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: BobFout

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Trinuclear moly is neither hard nor expensive to make. The lowly Mobil Delvac 1300 Super CJ-4 advertised to have it...snip

It's only one of the top HDEOs in the world. Nothing 'lowly' about Delvac 1300.

It's the best conventional HDEO in the world. I used to buy it for about $2 a quart at Walmart. I meant low-priced by lowly. Thank you Joe for insider info.

 

[JFAllen]

I'm surprised that the conversation has centred around Moly MoDTC (thanks by the way, learned something new :)), when I was expecting more conjecture on the inclusion of Alkylated Naphthalene base oils. However given the discussion, I think it can now be said with almost 100% certainty that Nulon Oils Australia have a 'strong' business relationship with Exxon-Mobil (not that that's a bad thing.) As a member has mentioned, Nulon started out offering a Teflon based oil additive (friction reducer) as their only product. As a marketing stunt they treated the oil of a brand new un-modified Holden Commodore (I believe) at the steps of the Sydney Opera House. Then drained the oil and drove the car 870kms (a little over 540-miles) to Melbourne on an empty sump. Snake oil or not, respect where respect is due, (I personally don't like 'Oil treatment' additives, but have been known to use 'oil-flushes.') Since then their marketing department has quietened down and their product stack filled out, their reputation has become cemented and trusted in the Australian Market. I honestly believe that the domestic competition (especially between Penrite and Nulon) has been a positive for the small Australian market. And it's encouraging to see each company investing in new technologies to part customers form their hard earned. I am looking forward to see if these Alkylated Naphthalene base oils do indeed smell different. Jordan

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: JFAllen

I hope Nulon, go in hard on price and if the TBN numbers are good, there's no real reason not to trust this oil in a street driven performnace application. If it's low TBN 'Race Oil,' then well, it's a harder sale. Time will tell.

Oils like Penrite 10-Tenths Racing 10W40 carry the Euro ACEA A3/B3 spec, so you know it's good to go in a street car. If Nulon had any sense, they would do the same. It shouldn't be a big expense as it's a self certification and they should be able to get on top of it fairly quickly.

 

[SR5]

Quote:

Snake oil or not, respect where respect is due, (I personally don't like 'Oil treatment' additives, but have been known to use 'oil-flushes.') Since then their marketing department has quietened down and their product stack filled out, their reputation has become cemented and trusted in the Australian Market.

I agree, in the dim past, Nulon was a snake-oil company, but this is no longer the case. Nulon is now a respected brand, and I would use their oils now days. Another Australian oil company that is growing is Hi-Tec. I was watching some racing today and they were a big sponsor plus one of my local garages uses Hi-Tec Oils. It's good to see the local Australian oil scene is very active, I hope it stays that way.

 

[Shannow]

When I was a teenager, back before unleaded (well it just came in) taking a gap year and working at Shell Manuka in Canberra, the shop mule was an XB falcon ute with 250, cast in log manifold, and "Group 3 on the tree racing shift". It was an attrocious oil burner, and I convinced the store manager to try this "E20" worn engine treatment (Nulon, teflon)...it singularly cut consumption by more than half, and reduced the "Bond Effect" of disappearing Ford on startup and when carrying a pallet load of softdrinks. I'm not a fan of meets or exceeds, and certainly not a fan of one armed bandit type advertorials. But agree that range to the consumer is good. (I wasn't a Penrite fan over their "thicker is best" for ages, but they ended up with certificated products, and a really solid range - their techs on the phones have been great too)

 

[PimTac]

Tri- nuclear is nothing special, it simply means derived from three nuclei. Why is this stuff being purported as some sort of holy grail additive?

 

[SR5]

Here is an interesting presentation comparing (PAO + Ester) to (PAO + AN) synthetic oils (my word in brackets - for context)

Quote:

Alkylated Naphthalene can improve additive effectiveness (over esters) through less competition for the surface (with the additive molecule).

Quote:

Synthetic engine oils blended with PAO and Alkylated Naphthalene demonstrate improved wear performance to PAO/ester formulations.

Quote:

Replacing adipate ester with AN improves hydrolytic stability in a formulated oil.

From the linked paper 6 cSt PAO (73%) + 25% Adipate Ester + 2% additives gave 0.15 mg/cm2 copper corrosion and a TAN Change of 0.22 mg KOH/g 6 cSt PAO (73%) + 25% 5 cSt Alkylated Naphthalene + 2% additives gives 0.00 mg/cm2 copper corrosion and a TAN change of 0.03 mg KOH/g [Using ASTM D 2619] So my take home from that one presentation is replacing Esters with AN gives less wear as the additive package gets less competition for the metal surface and that AN is more stable (and therefore less corrosive) when water is present.

 

[Jetronic]

Only Adipate esters... POE generally outperorms AN There's been a thread about this last year by Molakule

 

[Tom NJ]

ANs are more hydrolytically stable than esters, but POEs are more oxidatively stable, cleaner at high temperatures, and have lower volatility and much higher VIs. Tom NJ

 

[Gokhan]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic

POE generally outperorms AN

There is absolutely no such thing. Sure, esters can outperform other base stocks in certain properties, which is true for any base stock, as they all have advantages and disadvantages. However, esters have a major drawback and that's the reason few oils use them. They compete for the metal surfaces with the additives -- as a result, oils containing esters can have poor wear-protection performance. They need to be very careful when including esters in an oil for this reason. Alkylated naphthalene on the other hand is celebrated for its antiwear properties, as it has extremely high oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient).

 

[JFAllen]

^^Awesome Read

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Alkylated naphthalene on the other hand is celebrated for its antiwear properties, as it has extremely high oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient).

We've been over this before...how relevant is the "pressure viscosity co-efficient" to automotive bearings ? Automotive engines in general for that matter ? It's applicable to rolling element bearings and gears, but automotive bearings can't withstand an order of magnitude lower surface pressures without collapse.

 

[Jetronic]

eExactly, operate journal bearings in EHD regions and you'll get fatigue failure. A very high pressure-viscosity coefficient would be counter productive.

 

[Tom NJ]

Back in the early days of ester synthetics, formulations based on 100% diesters caused excessive wear on rocker arm pivots used in the then Sequence V engine test. Studies showed that the wear occurred in the first two to ten hours of the engine test and then stopped, indicating the esters were interfering with the initial formation of the protective ZDDP film. The ZDDP won the competition and the wear ceased. I personally reviewed such data from Hatco at the time and this was also confirmed by Exxon. Hatco manufactured over a million of gallons of 100% ester based motor oils sold under various third party brands in the 70s and 80s with very few complaints about wear. Most wear complaints were caused by excessive dirt (silicon) found in the used oil analyses, usually from excessive drain intervals. The lack of wear issues in the field further supported the theory that competition with ZDDP only occurred during break-in in certain engine designs and not after the ZDDP film was formed. The Sequence V engine was broken-in with the ester test oil, while field engines were switched over to ester based oils after mineral oil break-in. In the Sequence III engine test which also measures wear, such interference with ZDDP during break-in was not observed, and in fact Hatco completely passed a double Sequence III with an all diester based oil. Likewise Hatco ran 25,000 mile drain interval fleet tests with all diester based formulations with no wear issues. These tests were all with flat tappet designs and I would expect no unusual cam or lifter wear with today's roller designs. Yes these were old oil formulations in old engines, but they were also 100% based on some very high polarity di and triesters. Esters and ZDDP are still used today, sometimes with very high ester levels, without wear issues - witness Redline and Motul. In fact, Mobil 1 used esters in their formulations for nearly 20 years before switching to ANs. So the notion that esters compete with additives and cause engine wear, which originated decades ago, is far too broad, simple, and misleading. I would not break-in a new engine with a high ester based oil, especially a flat tappet design, but have used high ester oils for decades in my engines with annual drains, including my own formulations with over 50% esters, with no wear issues. There is some surface competition between esters and some rust and corrosion inhibitors, but this is overcome by the selection of appropriate additive/ester combinations. I would not just drop esters into a fully formulated engine oil, but any formulator worth his salt will select additives based on their compatibility with the selected base oils and confirm performance with exhaustive bench, engine, and fleet testing before releasing to the market. Tom NJ/VA

 

[Gokhan]

With the current, thick (0W-20 and thicker) viscosity grades, bearing lubrication is the least concern. Oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient) helps greatly in the EHD regime and that's important for the valvetrain and cylinders. ExxonMobil tests show that alkylared naphthalene greatly reduces valvetrain wear. Moreover, GF-6B will introduce thin grades, and the EHD regime and oil-film strength will be crucial.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Gokhan

Oil-film strength (pressure - viscosity coefficient) helps greatly in the EHD regime and that's important for the valvetrain and cylinders. ExxonMobil tests show that alkylared naphthalene greatly reduces valvetrain wear.

Again patents, not papers... as you know (or learned in your ultimate 0W20 thread), valvetrain wear is predominantly additive controlled. But as to patents, and what Exxon Mobil are actually claiming (you referenced "greatly reduced valvetrain wear") Mobil patent for "Lubricating oil compositions with engine wear protection"

Quote:

[0030] The lubricating oils of this disclosure provide excellent engine protection including anti-wear performance. This benefit has been demonstrated for the lubricating oils of this disclosure in the Sequence IVA (ASTM D6891) engine tests. The lubricating oils of this disclosure provide improved fuel efficiency. A lower HTHS viscosity engine oil generally provides superior fuel economy to a higher HTHS viscosity product. This benefit has been demonstrated for the lubricating oils of this disclosure in the PV1451 engine test. [0031] The lubricating engine oils of this disclosure have a composition sufficient to pass wear protection requirements of one or more engine tests selected from Sequence IVA and others.

Couple of points... * firstly you don't beleive in the sequence IVA...but that's an aside, indistry does, and uses it. * secondly, passing isn't "greatly reduced valvetrain wear" unless compared to basestock alone...especially when most of the industry players have targets of around 30% of the max using their additive based system. Lets' see what else Exxon Mobil say in their patent.

Quote:

[0002] Lubricant-related performance characteristics such as high temperature deposit and varnish control, fuel economy and wear protection are extremely advantageous attributes as measured by a variety of bench and engine tests. It is known that selection of viscosity modifier can significantly impact a lubricant formulation's viscosity control over a wide temperature range as well as fuel efficiency. It is also known that addition of viscosity modifiers can also contribute to sludge and deposit formation. Other than viscometric effects, selection of viscosity modifier is not generally expected to have a significant impact on wear performance, while other formulation components, such as ZDDP antiwear and friction modifiers, do. [0003] Therefore, a major challenge in engine oil formulation is simultaneously achieving wear, deposit, and varnish control while also maintaining fuel economy performance, over a broad temperature range. [0004] Lubricant-related wear control is highly desirable due to increasing use of low viscosity engine oils for improved fuel efficiency. As governmental regulations for vehicle fuel consumption and carbon emissions become more stringent, use of low viscosity engine oils to meet the regulatory standards is becoming more prevalent. At the same time, lubricants need to provide a substantial level of durability and wear protection due to the formation of thinner lubricant films during engine operation. As such, use of antiwear additives and friction modifiers in a lubricant formulation is the typical method for achieving wear control and durability. Due to limitations of using high levels of antiwear and friction modifier additives such as catalyst poisoning and deposit formation, it is highly desirable to find alternative methods for achieving excellent wear control and durability

So ExxonMobil research has indicated that the presence of viscosity modifiers and wear control additives leads to sludge and desposits (handy for your 0W20 thread, eh ?). By their own statements (in patents), Mobil are exploring ways of reducing the additive treat rate while maintaining wear performance.