Not VW507 certified oil in a VW507 required engine

[CourierDriver]

Originally Posted By: Pesca
Let us put the warranty problem aside for the moment.

From what I understand, VW507 oil is required mainly for extended drain intervals.

Does that mean you can use any synthetic oil (PP, Syn, M1 (not the ESP version),...) which are not VW507 certified in a VW507 oil required engine, as long as it is not for extended drains (between 5 to 8 Kmiles)?

Are there any other problems you can have by not using the correct oil, even on shorter OCIs?

To be more precised, I am talking about 5W30 version of these oils.

Thanks in advance,
I just call the VW dealership in Chattanoog tn, the service mgr says to use the 507 oil in the diesels and nothing else because special additives in European oil. He said do not buy the autozone or off the shelf oils because at about 200k miles ur bearings start to go out and on some older model diesels the oil pump system goes out. So I would go with what he said,,do not use Mobil 1 or anyother synthetic he said.

 

[CourierDriver]

STOP THE MUSIC ON THE 507 OIL, Please call ur dealership on the 507 oil asap and get the latest input....vw

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Let us put the warranty problem aside for the moment.

From what I understand, VW507 oil is required mainly for extended drain intervals.

Does that mean you can use any synthetic oil (PP, Syn, M1 (not the ESP version),...) which are not VW507 certified in a VW507 oil required engine, as long as it is not for extended drains (between 5 to 8 Kmiles)?

Are there any other problems you can have by not using the correct oil, even on shorter OCIs?

To be more precised, I am talking about 5W30 version of these oils.

Thanks in advance,
I just call the VW dealership in Chattanoog tn, the service mgr says to use the 507 oil in the diesels and nothing else because special additives in European oil. He said do not buy the autozone or off the shelf oils because at about 200k miles ur bearings start to go out and on some older model diesels the oil pump system goes out. So I would go with what he said,,do not use Mobil 1 or anyother synthetic he said.


LOL.. Well than I guess the dealership needs to tell VW to pull their 507.00 rating for M1 ESP 5w-30. Dealerships..ugh.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Let us put the warranty problem aside for the moment.

From what I understand, VW507 oil is required mainly for extended drain intervals.

Does that mean you can use any synthetic oil (PP, Syn, M1 (not the ESP version),...) which are not VW507 certified in a VW507 oil required engine, as long as it is not for extended drains (between 5 to 8 Kmiles)?

Are there any other problems you can have by not using the correct oil, even on shorter OCIs?

To be more precised, I am talking about 5W30 version of these oils.

Thanks in advance,
I just call the VW dealership in Chattanoog tn, the service mgr says to use the 507 oil in the diesels and nothing else because special additives in European oil. He said do not buy the autozone or off the shelf oils because at about 200k miles ur bearings start to go out and on some older model diesels the oil pump system goes out. So I would go with what he said,,do not use Mobil 1 or anyother synthetic he said.

Four different points need to be made:
1) Diesel engines require a diesel-rated oil, whether it meets a VW spec or a Daimler spec or an API spec. Oils that say "gasoline engines only" on the front label should not be used even for short drain intervals.

2) VW 507.00-spec oils should be and most likely are superior to oils meeting all previous VW specifications.

3) API-rated oils have been used, successfully, in all previous TDI engines (2007-and-earlier). They have not been adequately tested in the current CR (common-rail) engines because so many of these engines are still under warranty.

4) I have no opinions on gas-engine Volkswagens or what oil is best to use. However, folks with the older 1.8T engine and some with the 2.5-liter 5-cylinder engine have used both Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 5w40 successfully; the 0w40 meets VW 505.00 and the 5w40 meets API CJ-4 and SM.

 

[CourierDriver]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
Originally Posted By: Pesca
Let us put the warranty problem aside for the moment.

From what I understand, VW507 oil is required mainly for extended drain intervals.

Does that mean you can use any synthetic oil (PP, Syn, M1 (not the ESP version),...) which are not VW507 certified in a VW507 oil required engine, as long as it is not for extended drains (between 5 to 8 Kmiles)?

Are there any other problems you can have by not using the correct oil, even on shorter OCIs?

To be more precised, I am talking about 5W30 version of these oils.

Thanks in advance,
I just call the VW dealership in Chattanoog tn, the service mgr says to use the 507 oil in the diesels and nothing else because special additives in European oil. He said do not buy the autozone or off the shelf oils because at about 200k miles ur bearings start to go out and on some older model diesels the oil pump system goes out. So I would go with what he said,,do not use Mobil 1 or anyother synthetic he said.

Four different points need to be made:
1) Diesel engines require a diesel-rated oil, whether it meets a VW spec or a Daimler spec or an API spec. Oils that say "gasoline engines only" on the front label should not be used even for short drain intervals.

2) VW 507.00-spec oils should be and most likely are superior to oils meeting all previous VW specifications.

3) API-rated oils have been used, successfully, in all previous TDI engines (2007-and-earlier). They have not been adequately tested in the current CR (common-rail) engines because so many of these engines are still under warranty.

4) I have no opinions on gas-engine Volkswagens or what oil is best to use. However, folks with the older 1.8T engine and some with the 2.5-liter 5-cylinder engine have used both Mobil 1 0w40 and Mobil 1 5w40 successfully; the 0w40 meets VW 505.00 and the 5w40 meets API CJ-4 and SM.
The dealership said beware if its not 507 , u may be in for a engine rebuild around 200k

 

[CourierDriver]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
If Rotella 5w40 and M1 5w40 are made for diesels, why would they not work on a vw, like a vw diesel is to delicate and dainty for truck diesel oil. I use either one on a gas 318 ancient v8 , so whats the deal. Ok. it was a rant. the Germans know best, Im not a German engineer, all engines are different and the little vw diesel seems to be to much trouble to me.


M1 5w40 and Rotella T6 5w40 are both fine for TDI engines, and probably for the current CR (common-rail) model. It is the DPF (diesel particulate filter) that may require an oil with lower percentages of some additives. During the warranty period, one should use the specified oil; after that it is up to the owner. His decision may depend on how long he plans to keep his TDI -- and whether a healthy functional DPF is essential for driveability.
Hey I was wrong , do not use the oil I use in a vw, dealership said not to on diesels period, use 507 only..........................

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
The dealership said beware if its not 507 , u may be in for a engine rebuild around 200k

I knew there was one more point I wanted to make. Be careful when accepting information or advice at a VW dealership. If they don't know the correct answer to a question, they tend to make things up.

The engine in the current 2.0-liter TDI is nearly identical to all other 1.9- and 2.0-liter TDIs made since at least 1995-96. These engines last almost forever with a good diesel-rated synthetic 5w40 like Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck.

I suppose there are some gas-engine-only oils out there that might shorten the life of a TDI engine to 200k miles or so. But we are not talking about them.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
The engine in the current 2.0-liter TDI is nearly identical to all other 1.9- and 2.0-liter TDIs made since at least 1995-96. These engines last almost forever with a good diesel-rated synthetic 5w40 like Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck

The engines are not dissimilar aside from having a fully rollerized valvetrain, but it's the exhaust system that's radically different and what the 507.00 low SAPS oil is designed to protect. Comparisons to the AHU/1Z/ALH/BEW/BRM/BHW engines preceding it are irrelevant with respect to oil selection.

 

[BTLew81]

I've thought about playing with a non 507 oil too. Consequences are not worth it. I run ESP 5w30, change it every 7500, and call it a day. Quality oil that meets 507. There is also a QS option and Platinum VX, all available mail order. I like Amsoil, but would not risk DEO in this engine, or specifically, the emission system.

 

[dparm]

Emissions stuff is getting increasingly complex and expensive. I've looked at some VW 504/507-specific oil data sheets (namely Motul's since I was bored one day) and they're very adamant about the spec and its importance to emissions components.

VW does not just arbitrarily make up the specification because they've got nothing better to do.

 

[FowVay]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
The engine in the current 2.0-liter TDI is nearly identical to all other 1.9- and 2.0-liter TDIs made since at least 1995-96. These engines last almost forever with a good diesel-rated synthetic 5w40 like Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck


The oil standard is for the emissions system, not the engine. And the new engine is NOT nearly identical to the older 1,9 Liter engine. Here's a introductory quote from the CR study guide:

The 2.0 Liter TDI common rail engine has a crossflow aluminum cylinder head with two intake and two exhaust valves per cylinder. The valves are arranged vertically upright. The fuel injectors are fixed in the cylinder head with clamps. They can be removed through small caps in the valve cover. An additional feature of the cylinder head are pressure sensors that are integrated into the glow plugs.

The two overhead camshafts are linked by spur gears with an integrated backlash adjuster. They are driven by the crankshaft with a toothed belt and the exhaust camshaft timing gear. The valves are actuated by low friction roller cam followers with hydraulic valve lash adjusters.

A DOHC, 16 valve, low compression diesel is not much like that old SOHC, 8 valve AHU/ALH engines in any capacity other than fuel type and number of cylinders. Even the crankshaft metallurgy is different to reduce vibrational impulses.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: BTLew81
I've thought about playing with a non 507 oil too. Consequences are not worth it. I run ESP 5w30, change it every 7500, and call it a day. Quality oil that meets 507. There is also a QS option and Platinum VX, all available mail order. I like Amsoil, but would not risk DEO in this engine, or specifically, the emission system.


+1,
The ESP 5w-30 also carries the following OEM approvals:
BMW Longlife 04
Mercedes-Benz MB-Approval 229.31 and 229.51
Porsche C30
PSA B712290
PSA D - Level 3
PSA E - Level 3
AvtoVAZ Group “Luxe”
Chrysler MS-11106
AAE Standard STO-003-05, Group B6

 

[Tornado Red]

At some point, after the warranty period, somebody is going to rip the DPF off, along with the DGR. And one of the tuners is going to modify the program so the ECM will not be looking for those devices. At TDI Club we cannot even discuss this possibility, since it would be legal for off-road use only.

But unless the DPF is designed to last forever, someday one of them will fail and the owner will decide he does not want to pay to replace it.

This is on-topic because we do not really know whether the 507.00-spec oil will prolong DPF life or not. There is no data.

 

[scurvy]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
This is on-topic because we do not really know whether the 507.00-spec oil will prolong DPF life or not. There is no data.

There is considerable data to support high-SAPS oils clogging DPFs, leading to the formulation of low-SAPS oils. Proving the converse is more difficult.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: scurvy
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red
This is on-topic because we do not really know whether the 507.00-spec oil will prolong DPF life or not. There is no data.

There is considerable data to support high-SAPS oils clogging DPFs, leading to the formulation of low-SAPS oils. Proving the converse is more difficult.


I haven't seen that data... but it could be because I have not looked for it.

Besides, we are not talking about using a CI-4 or CI-4+ oil... we are considering whether a CJ-4 oil, a mid-SAPS oil, might be suitable.

 

[FowVay]

I believe there is some misunderstanding of the exhaust system on these engines. The DPF is only one of four catalyst systems in the CR exhaust. Here's a brief rundown of what can be potentially contaminated with fuel, oil, and additive useage:

1. Oxidation catalyst: first in line after the turbocharger. It sits atop the DPF in the same unit and is made of platinum and palladium which is somehow vaporized over the aluminum oxide coated substrate.

2. Particulate filter: next in line and in the same housing as the oxidation catalyst. This thing is made of aluminum titanide and is vapor coated also with platinum.

3. Next is the Nitrogen Oxide catalyst: This thing sits down stream of the previous Oxidation/Particulate catalyst. I don't know what it's made of but it does house two O2 sensors so I suspect it's similar to what is found on a normal gas engine.

4. Finally there is a H2S (sulfur) catalytic converter: this thing sits all the way in the back of the exhaust system to reduce the effects of thermal aging. It's purpose is to completely convert the H2S that is generated in the deNOX cycle into SO2.

This darned thing is a nightmare,, and very expensive one at that. Fuel quality is paramount and the oil additisation is not overlooked as a possibility for reduced component life.

While the data is not readily available for us to discuss the durability effects, you can trust that this has been thought out prior to production.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: Tornado Red


This is on-topic because we do not really know whether the 507.00-spec oil will prolong DPF life or not. There is no data.



I have to disagree. ACEA C-rating was created specifically around extended the life of DPF/TWC emissions systems. Don't forget these systems are typically warrantied far longer (100k miles for VW?) than the standard bumper-to-bumper factory warranty. It's not coincidental that all new light duty diesel cars/trucks sold by BMW.MB.VW require ACEA C-rated motor oil.

 

[CourierDriver]

Originally Posted By: BMWTurboDzl
Originally Posted By: Tornado Red


This is on-topic because we do not really know whether the 507.00-spec oil will prolong DPF life or not. There is no data.



I have to disagree. ACEA C-rating was created specifically around extended the life of DPF/TWC emissions systems. Don't forget these systems are typically warrantied far longer (100k miles for VW?) than the standard bumper-to-bumper factory warranty. It's not coincidental that all new light duty diesel cars/trucks sold by BMW.MB.VW require ACEA C-rated motor oil.
call an vw independent auto shop maybe 3 or 4 shops and get their experience on the oils and engine problems and so on.

 

[CourierDriver]

follow up,,I just went on line and looked up vw Jetta and boy was there a ton of oil related problems. Guess I will not be buying one of those, but I wouldn't anyway. I had a new 67 Beetle once and it was great, never a problem with oil. Ok, it was a simple engine, is there anything wrong with simplicity if it works? VW,s are expensive, I don't need hassles, do u.

 

[Tornado Red]

Originally Posted By: CourierDriver
follow up,,I just went on line and looked up vw Jetta and boy was there a ton of oil related problems. Guess I will not be buying one of those, but I wouldn't anyway. I had a new 67 Beetle once and it was great, never a problem with oil. Ok, it was a simple engine, is there anything wrong with simplicity if it works? VW,s are expensive, I don't need hassles, do u.


What oil-related problems, other than some sludging in the longitudinally-mounted 1.8T in older Passats? The folks who used the correct synthetic oil did not have problems.

Volkswagens are not for everyone. I am personally not interested in any model except those with TDI engines. And I will admit that TDIs are not for everyone, only those who drive enough to save enough on fuel.